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[OBG] Nature of Race (merged)

#75
I made all of the requested changes, except as discussed below:

Quote:MH: Your reply to Pigliucci & Kaplan (2003) is not satisfying. When they say "folk race" they must mean something like this

Part of the problem is that ""folk race" is used ambiguously. At times it is used to mean both sociological classifications like US "Asians" (which often don't cut out natural divisions) and at other times it is used to mean traditional race classifications like Mongoloid, Caucasoid, etc. (which do cut out natural divisions). Pigliucci & Kaplan (2003); Pigliucci (2013) seem to use it in the latter sense. Consider the following passage from Pigliucci (2013):

"Pigliucci and Kaplan (2003) have therefore proposed that human races—to the extent that they exist—could be thought of from a biological perspective as ecotypes. There are several implications to this proposal, the most fundamental being the following two: (a) there is little relation between human races qua ecotypes and the folk concept of race, because the same folk ‘‘race’’ may have evolved independently several times in response to local environmental conditions, and be characterized by different genetic makeups; (b) ecotypes (and hence races) are only superficially different from each other because they are usually selected for only a relatively small number of traits that are advantageous in certain environments. This means that races are nothing like phylogenetically divergent subspecies, and that racial differences are literally skin deep.. the validity of such contribution lies precisely in the fact that it shows that Sesardic-like accounts of race are ill-informed scientifically, so that we can all move on and concentrate on the more relevant and complex issue of the social construction of the concept of race...""

Pigliucci (2013) -- and by inference Pigliucci & Kaplan (2003) -- argue that:
(a) ecotypic races exist
(b) but ecotypes are nothing like "phylogenetically divergent subspecies" because they represent local adaptations
© therefore Sesardic's "folk races" -- which are the THRs and which are something like subspecies -- can't be ecotypes

My reply was that Pigliucci (2013); Pigliucci & Kaplan (2003) overly narrowly understood the ecotypic concept -- Mayr, for example, quite explicitly says that "phylogenetically divergent subspecies" are necessarily ecotypes. And Coyne equates the two.

To clarify, I rewrote this as:

"As such, while they allow for human ecological races and subspecies, they argue that such races do not correspond with traditionally recognized ones such as the THRs. As Pigliucci (2013) notes:

As for the biological interpretation of the concept of race, I have reiterated Pigliucci and Kaplan’s (2003) suggestion that it is not meaningless, but it does have a sufficiently different meaning from that of folk races [including the THRs] to create serious problems for most of the published scientific and philosophical literature on biological differences among ‘‘races.’ There are several implications to this proposal, the most fundamental being the following two: (a) there is little relation between human races qua ecotypes and the folk concept of race… ecotypes (and hence races) are only superficially different from each other because they are usually selected for only a relatively small number of traits that are advantageous in certain environments. This means that races are nothing like phylogenetically divergent subspecies, and that racial differences are literally skin deep. [Italics added]

Of course, they are only able to make this case by narrowly understanding the ecotype concept. In their hurry to dismiss 'folk races', they miss common ecotypic subspecies understandings, such as those discussed by Mayr (1970) and Coyne (2012). As discussed in section IV-I, Mayr (1970) noted that "not a single geographic race is known that is not also an ecological race, nor is there an ecological race that is not at the same time at least a microgeographic race”. So much for Pigliucci’s (2013) claim that ecotypic races are “nothing like phylogenetically divergent subspecies”!

Quote:MH: I do not understand why the entire critique of Pigliucci & Kaplan did not belong to "Folk Race Mismatch Arguments".

Yes, it would be a sub-type of this, too. It's a subspecies argument because ecotypic subspecies ~ races.

Quote:MH: Next, the below paragraph, appearing just before the section "Panmixia Arguments" has a big problem

The "In summary, these [four] arguments represent the prominent..." should say [three]. But yes, you are correct that I forgot to mention three subtypes of arguments.

The biological scientific arguments are:
Subspecies arguments -- three of them
Panmixia arguments
Population structure arguments
Bio-statistical Arguments
Cluster Discordances Arguments
Folk Race Mismatch Arguments


I fixed thus:

"Biological arguments work from within the biological sciences and attempt to show that human races, or, at times, races in general, do not exist given some strictly natural scientific considerations. These can be subdivided into human subspecies, panmixia, population structure, bio-statistical, cluster discordance, and folk race-biological race mismatch arguments."

Quote:Concerning the section "Panmixia Arguments" I believe the main idea has been already explained in section 2 (same thing with the section following this one) and I don't see anything new here. Also ...

It gave an excuse to add:

"Before engaging this argument, it needs to be pointed out that the non-trivial differentiation between human populations indicates that there must have been significantly restricted gene flow. There is a well-known rule of thumb in biology called the One-Migrant-per-Generation Rule. According to this, populations will not genetically differentiate if there are more than one migrants per generation between them. While the actual practical number of migrants needed to prevent divergence is somewhat higher (Wang, 2004), the point stands that for the level of divergence found between THR, gene flow must have been substantially restricted."

Quote:While human races are not as genetically differentiated as Ostrich or Elephant subspecies, it is not difficult to find a plethora of species with unchallenged formally recognized races which are both phenotypically and genetically less differentiated than human continental divisions.

Can you cite a reference ?

I discussed this in section IV:

"Templeton (1998) did this using MtDNA for non-Human species (between subspecies) and microsatellites and RFLPs for humans (between continental populations). The Fst values range from about 0.095 to 0.95; of the 13 species he presented, humans came in 10th place in terms of interpopulation Fst values. Using the same method as Templeton (1998), similar results would be found using the values for the 17 ungalate species with MtDNA Fst values presented by Lorenzen (2008); of the 17, Humans would have placed 14th....Humans (based on continental races) came 21 out of 25 in terms of genetic differentiation . These results, then, are quite similar to those found by Templeton (1998)."

In a footnote I noted: "Of course, 21/25 is still the 14th percentile, which is low average (9th to 23rd) not borderline (2nd to 8th)."

I changed this to: While human races are not as genetically differentiated as Ostrich or Elephant subspecies, as discussed in section IV-I, it is not difficult to find a number of species with unchallenged formally recognized races which are both phenotypically and genetically less differentiated than are human continental divisions.

Quote:Concerning the section "Bio-statistical Arguments" ...Is it the same argument as "aggregation reduces measurement errors and, consequently, improves accuracy of measurement" ?

It would be more like: including a wider range of measures allows for the more accurate estimation of a latent variable.

Quote:It's amusing that your single quote of Dobzhansky (1946) says it all ("There is no "true" subspecific level"), and yet the section V-D has a length of 6 pages.

Probably true, but I will leave it.

Quote:In the same section, there is this passage that I don't understand. Too obscure... especially the last sentence.

"Discussing one line of argument, Kaplan (2011) notes that one of the “main lines of argument against the biological reality of races” is that “what was meant by “race is biological” was a strong essentialist claim that we now know to be false, not just of human populations, but indeed of most biologically respectable populations”. To render this position otherwise: biological races are not real because “races” are biologically impossible entities".

One of the lines of argument is that "biological race" means something like the species realist's species -- hence a "strong essentialist claim". It is argued that this is what "biological race" meant and it is concluded that therefore "biological race" can not exist any more that phlogiston can. One of my points has been: (a) this makes for an argument against "biological species" and (b) "intraspecific race" was never thought this way that species once were.

How about:

"To render this position otherwise: biological races are not real because “races” refer to entities which we now know can not possibly exist."

As for the source it was: Kaplan, J. (How Much) Do the Semantics of “Race” Matter? A Note From a Parochial Perspective. I noticed that it hasn't been published. I attached a copy below -- which does not specifically say "Do not Cite" He also presented it at a conference:

Jonathan Kaplan (Oregon State Univesity)
Do the Semantics of Race Matter?: A Note from a Parochial Perspective
Comment: Christopher Lean
http://www.docsrush.net/2535211/northwes...edule.html

What do you suggest I do? If I list it, I will list it as: Kaplan, J. (n.d.). (How Much) Do the Semantics of “Race” Matter? A Note From a Parochial Perspective.


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Messages In This Thread
[OBG] Nature of Race part 1 - by Chuck - 2014-Dec-25, 21:33:36
RE: [OBG] Nature of Race (merged) - by Emil - 2015-Mar-29, 00:01:36
RE: [OBG] Nature of Race (merged) - by Meng Hu - 2015-Apr-03, 02:51:52
RE: [OBG] Nature of Race (merged) - by Emil - 2015-Apr-03, 21:50:35
RE: [OBG] Nature of Race (merged) - by Chuck - 2015-Apr-08, 13:23:31
[OBG] Nature of Race part 2 - by Chuck - 2014-Dec-27, 02:48:10
[OBG] Nature of Race part 4 - by Chuck - 2014-Dec-30, 23:58:10
RE: Nature of Race part 4 - by Peter Frost - 2014-Dec-31, 18:11:25
RE: Nature of Race part 4 - by Chuck - 2015-Jan-01, 00:20:51
RE: Nature of Race part 4 - by Chuck - 2015-Jan-01, 15:37:35
RE: Nature of Race part 4 - by Peter Frost - 2015-Jan-01, 23:36:17
RE: Nature of Race part 2 - by Chuck - 2015-Jan-04, 07:01:40
RE: Nature of Race part 1 - by Emil - 2015-Jan-04, 07:27:12
RE: Nature of Race part 1 - by Meng Hu - 2015-Jan-05, 18:57:40
RE: Nature of Race part 1 - by Chuck - 2015-Jan-08, 00:15:45
RE: Nature of Race part 1 - by Meng Hu - 2015-Jan-09, 01:16:53
[OBG] Nature of Race, part 3 - by Chuck - 2015-Jan-09, 23:33:46
RE: Nature of Race, part 3 - by Peter Frost - 2015-Jan-11, 04:16:31
RE: Nature of Race part 4 - by Chuck - 2015-Jan-11, 05:19:49
RE: Nature of Race, part 3 - by Chuck - 2015-Jan-11, 05:51:03
RE: Nature of Race, part 3 - by Peter Frost - 2015-Jan-11, 18:15:29
RE: Nature of Race part 4 - by Peter Frost - 2015-Jan-11, 18:39:54
RE: Nature of Race part 4 - by Chuck - 2015-Jan-11, 21:13:22
RE: Nature of Race, part 3 - by Chuck - 2015-Jan-11, 23:47:15
RE: Nature of Race, part 3 - by Chuck - 2015-Jan-12, 00:17:13
RE: Nature of Race part 4 - by Emil - 2015-Jan-12, 03:56:59
RE: Nature of Race part 4 - by Peter Frost - 2015-Jan-12, 06:47:22
RE: Nature of Race part 4 - by Emil - 2015-Jan-12, 18:31:23
RE: Nature of Race part 4 - by Duxide - 2015-Jan-12, 18:44:54
RE: Nature of Race part 4 - by Chuck - 2015-Jan-12, 21:51:03
RE: Nature of Race part 4 - by Chuck - 2015-Jan-12, 22:08:59
[OBG] Nature of Race part 5 - by Chuck - 2015-Jan-14, 04:25:25
RE: Nature of Race part 4 - by Duxide - 2015-Jan-14, 10:35:21
RE: Nature of Race part 4 - by Chuck - 2015-Jan-16, 21:34:48
RE: Nature of Race part 4 - by Peter Frost - 2015-Jan-17, 21:50:13
RE: Nature of Race part 4 - by Chuck - 2015-Jan-18, 02:46:31
RE: Nature of Race, part 3 - by Meng Hu - 2015-Jan-18, 04:59:02
RE: Nature of Race part 2 - by Meng Hu - 2015-Jan-18, 06:00:51
RE: Nature of Race part 4 - by Peter Frost - 2015-Jan-19, 03:19:58
RE: Nature of Race part 4 - by Chuck - 2015-Jan-19, 21:02:17
RE: Nature of Race part 4 - by Peter Frost - 2015-Jan-20, 18:45:25
RE: Nature of Race part 2 - by Chuck - 2015-Jan-21, 02:21:31
RE: Nature of Race part 4 - by Chuck - 2015-Jan-21, 02:59:27
RE: Nature of Race part 4 - by Chuck - 2015-Jan-21, 03:00:44
RE: Nature of Race part 4 - by Duxide - 2015-Jan-21, 11:00:51
RE: Nature of Race, part 3 - by Chuck - 2015-Jan-22, 00:06:32
RE: Nature of Race, part 3 - by Meng Hu - 2015-Jan-22, 03:26:56
RE: Nature of Race part 4 - by Chuck - 2015-Jan-22, 06:12:47
Some comments - by Emil - 2015-Jan-23, 21:01:32
RE: Nature of Race part 4 - by Peter Frost - 2015-Jan-24, 02:03:48
RE: Nature of Race, part 3 - by Chuck - 2015-Jan-24, 06:57:50
Comments on version 3 - by Emil - 2015-Jan-24, 07:34:24
RE: Nature of Race part 4 - by Meng Hu - 2015-Jan-25, 05:19:51
RE: Nature of Race part 1 - by Chuck - 2015-Jan-25, 07:14:06
RE: Nature of Race part 2 - by Chuck - 2015-Jan-26, 02:29:36
RE: Nature of Race part 4 - by Chuck - 2015-Jan-26, 06:12:38
RE: Nature of Race, part 3 - by Meng Hu - 2015-Jan-28, 04:42:41
RE: Nature of Race, part 3 - by Chuck - 2015-Jan-30, 04:47:18
RE: Nature of Race part 1 - by Dalliard - 2015-Feb-04, 16:44:13
RE: [OBG] Nature of Race part 1 - by Chuck - 2015-Feb-12, 01:16:14
[OBG] Nature of Race part 6 - by Chuck - 2015-Mar-05, 22:39:52
RE: [OBG] Nature of Race part 6 - by Emil - 2015-Mar-06, 01:33:45
RE: [OBG] Nature of Race part 6 - by Chuck - 2015-Mar-06, 01:36:16
RE: [OBG] Nature of Race part 6 - by Emil - 2015-Mar-06, 04:23:24
RE: [OBG] Nature of Race part 6 - by Chuck - 2015-Mar-06, 22:05:46
RE: [OBG] Nature of Race part 6 - by Emil - 2015-Mar-06, 23:43:06
RE: [OBG] Nature of Race part 6 - by Chuck - 2015-Mar-06, 23:59:47
RE: [OBG] Nature of Race part 4 - by Meng Hu - 2015-Mar-07, 00:16:16
RE: [OBG] Nature of Race part 6 - by Emil - 2015-Mar-07, 03:00:17
RE: [OBG] Nature of Race part 4 - by Chuck - 2015-Mar-07, 22:28:41
RE: [OBG] Nature of Race part 4 - by Meng Hu - 2015-Mar-08, 03:25:20
RE: [OBG] Nature of Race part 4 - by Chuck - 2015-Mar-08, 05:51:23
RE: [OBG] Nature of Race part 5 - by Emil - 2015-Mar-09, 03:27:19
RE: [OBG] Nature of Race part 5 - by Chuck - 2015-Mar-09, 05:09:23
Nature of Race Full Version - by Chuck - 2015-Mar-13, 23:03:56
RE: [OBG] Nature of Race part 1 - by Peter Frost - 2015-Mar-13, 23:06:45
RE: [OBG] Nature of Race part 1 - by Chuck - 2015-Mar-13, 23:12:43
RE: [OBG] Nature of Race part 5 - by Meng Hu - 2015-Mar-16, 04:19:57
RE: [OBG] Nature of Race part 5 - by Chuck - 2015-Mar-17, 00:07:49
RE: [OBG] Nature of Race part 5 - by Chuck - 2015-Mar-17, 02:01:50
RE: Nature of Race Full Version - by B.B. - 2015-Mar-19, 14:00:41
RE: Nature of Race Full Version - by Chuck - 2015-Mar-19, 17:21:11
RE: Nature of Race Full Version - by Emil - 2015-Mar-19, 19:19:17
RE: Nature of Race Full Version - by Chuck - 2015-Mar-19, 19:27:20
RE: Nature of Race Full Version - by Peter Frost - 2015-Mar-20, 05:18:27
RE: Nature of Race Full Version - by B.B. - 2015-Mar-20, 13:13:56
RE: [OBG] Nature of Race part 5 - by Meng Hu - 2015-Mar-20, 14:31:07
RE: Nature of Race Full Version - by Meng Hu - 2015-Mar-20, 15:45:47
RE: [OBG] Nature of Race part 5 - by Meng Hu - 2015-Mar-20, 19:21:44
RE: [OBG] Nature of Race part 5 - by Emil - 2015-Mar-20, 20:49:14
RE: Nature of Race Full Version - by Emil - 2015-Mar-20, 21:26:44
RE: Nature of Race Full Version - by Chuck - 2015-Mar-21, 17:51:14
RE: Nature of Race Full Version - by Peter Frost - 2015-Mar-21, 20:50:39
RE: Nature of Race Full Version - by Chuck - 2015-Mar-21, 21:49:27
RE: Nature of Race Full Version - by Peter Frost - 2015-Mar-21, 22:32:28
RE: Nature of Race Full Version - by Chuck - 2015-Mar-23, 02:14:31
RE: Nature of Race Full Version - by Chuck - 2015-Mar-24, 00:11:29
RE: Nature of Race Full Version - by Peter Frost - 2015-Mar-24, 22:31:05
RE: Nature of Race Full Version - by Chuck - 2015-Mar-25, 01:03:09
RE: Nature of Race Full Version - by Peter Frost - 2015-Mar-25, 03:05:50
RE: Nature of Race Full Version - by Chuck - 2015-Mar-25, 03:20:05
RE: Nature of Race Full Version - by Emil - 2015-Mar-25, 16:20:10
RE: Nature of Race Full Version - by Chuck - 2015-Mar-27, 22:49:39
RE: Nature of Race Full Version - by Chuck - 2015-Mar-27, 22:55:52
RE: [OBG] Nature of Race part 5 - by Meng Hu - 2015-Mar-28, 20:28:56
RE: Nature of Race Full Version - by Meng Hu - 2015-Mar-28, 21:00:38
 
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