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[OBG] Nature of Race Full

Edited 2:47 07/19/2015

(2015-Jul-19, 19:00:56)Chuck Wrote:
(2015-Jul-19, 16:25:25)Krom Wrote: If race was originally the "weak form" of race naturalism (contra Hochman, Marks) and not a new concept or re-definition, then you need to explain -- why? You've already admitted racial differences are minor. So what is the point in a trivial classification?Furthermore clines capture these rather unimportant differences a lot more accurately: we can simply recognise the variation of a single trait across geographical space without arbitrarily having to impose a line of demarcation. Clinal maps for skin and eye colour, and a few other phenotypic traits have been produced since the 1960s.


Let me address the second point first since it is more easily addressable. Clines are character gradients; races, as I define them, are divisions of organisms. Clines describe singular traits; races, describe groups or organisms delineated in terms of ancestry which as a result differ in complexes of traits. Clines are interesting, but they are not races. Now, I could discuss ancestral relatedness without using discrete categories -- divisions -- but it's easier for me to think discretely, to talk about groups instead of degrees of ancestral affinity. In the same way, I often think about social classes instead of specific characteristics like education -- the former captures correlated variation too -- and when I think of social classes I tend to think categorically -- upper, middle, and lower. You can do otherwise; I am not saying that you should not. I am just asking you to recognize the validity of my way of thinking, since you undoubtedly recognize the validity of similar ways in other instances e.g., thinking about "ethnocultural groups" instead of memetic and somatic character gradients.

Moving back, Hochman and Marks, I believe, formulate their "strong form" differently. Could you please specify what so-said strong sense of race you had in mind? But you say: "You've already admitted racial differences are minor. So what is the point in a trivial classification?"

I never "admitted [that] racial differences" were "minor", rather I noted that they could be minor as is typically the case between minor races. As for major human races, they are moderate (see the quantification in section IV-K of my NofR paper), and between the formally recognized races of other species they are often major. Now, that said, the race concept, per my understanding is useful. This is why this concept is commonly employed in human related research, though under euphemisms. Consider the attached paper below. Let me quote from it:

Quote:In our group’s previous study, we found that area measures of cortical surface and total brain volumes of individuals of European descent in the United States correlate significantly with their ancestral geographic locations in Europe [9]. Here, we demonstrate that the three-dimensional geometry of cortical surface is highly predictive of individuals’ genetic ancestry in West Africa, Europe, East Asia, and America, even though their genetic background has been shaped by multiple waves of migratory and admixture events... Besides explaining more ancestry variance than other brain imaging measurements, the 3D geometry of the cortical surface further characterizes distinct regional patterns in the folding and gyrification of the human brain associated with each ancestral lineage. Results...The proportions of genetic ancestry were estimated using principal component (PC) analysis with whole-genome SNP reference panels for ancestry [12–14]. Four continental populations were used as ancestral references: West Africa (YRI, Yoruba in Ibadan), Europe (CEU, Utah residents with Northern and Western European ancestry), East Asia (EA), and America (NA, Native American). The metrics for summarizing genetic ancestry in each ancestral component were standardized as proportions ranging from 0% to 100%. These proportions represent how genetically similar an individual is to the reference population...An implication of our ancestry-related 3D models is that, unless properly controlled for, hidden population structures could present a challenge in brain imaging studies of admixed populations. The regional differences between ancestral groups include changing sulcus depths and folding angles. This issue becomes particularly relevant in large, multisite United States and international brain imaging studies [29].

Now, if you agree that the authors' "ancestral lineages", "ancestry groups", "continental populations", and "population structure" correspond with the race concept I am discussing -- division of a species, the members of which share more ancestry with each other than with members of other divisions, which differ in the frequency of hereditary traits -- then you should at least agree that some researchers consider the concept -- whether expressed statistically or otherwise -- to have utility and to be important in context to human, let along non-human related research. Marks and Hochmann are not morons. They are well aware of the ongoing research that employs the concept -- if defined statistically -- I am speaking of. As such, they have but two choices, they could acknowledge that the research employs a common race concept -- if not referred to as race -- and then try to assault the research a la:

Quote:“It appears that many scientists do not even believe this distinction makes a difference; they have concocted a thinly disguised euphemism for race they hope will not stir up as much controversy. Geographic ancestry has not replaced race — it has modernized it.” (Roberts, 2011)

“Thus, though the “population” concept is touted as an advancement in freeing genomics from racial bias, it is merely a terminological mask for “race” in genomics… The language employed to talk about “race” without talking about it overtly then takes the form of racial euphemisms like “population.” (Williams, 2015)

Or they can try to argue that the concept being employed is radically different from what was originally called race. They reasonably choose the latter option. Now a considerable portion of my NofR paper attempts to show that these population genetic concepts -- whether as employed in zoology or in medical genetic research -- are descendents of the early (intraspecific) race one(s) and, moreover, that they are ones which have undergone so little modification that referring to them as "race" -- or recognizing them as "race" concepts -- is well justified. Now, as for the general utility, I discussed this:

Quote:What is race? The term means many related things and is thus a polyseme. Here, we are not interested in “race” as either a term or a general notion but as a specific concept which picks out a type of biological variation not well captured by other concepts in the domain of biology. We might dispense with the term “race” were it not to appropriately describe the concept of interest and to help facilitate thinking about it. But what is this concept? To ask this question is to request examples of the sort of biological variation that we are trying to describe. Consider the following types of variation: New Yorkers and Parisians, blonds and brunets, East Asians and Europeans in New York, and humans and horses. From the perspective of biology, we would properly refer to the first as "(spatial) populations," the second as "morphs," and the fourth as "species." But what of the third? These are strangely sounding groups. After all, how is someone an ‘East Asian’ and yet also a ‘New Yorker’? Perhaps what is meant is someone who once lived in East Asia – who migrated from the East Asian (spatial) population –and who now lives in New York? Yet what if both our East Asians and Europeans were second or third generation immigrants, ones born in New York? In what way would such groupings be biological? Perhaps, in fact, there is nothing biological to speak of beyond the types of divisions which we have already named. Perhaps our East Asians and Europeans, as such, are nothing at all, biologically speaking.

I would like to think about: divisions of a species which differ in the frequency of hereditary traits because the members share more ancestry with members of the same divisions than with members of other ones. I don't feel that I owe you a justification for why. Perhaps I am interested in understanding evolutionary processes; perhaps I wish to be a biological racist and discriminate on the grounds of inclusive fitness; perhaps I just like categorizing people; perhaps it's easier for me to think of ancestral variation -- and so continuous correlated variation -- discretely; perhaps I wish to research the relationship between outcome differences and genomically defined racial ancestry in mixed populations; perhaps all of the above; perhaps none.

Now, (1) do you grant that my concept is coherent? (2) Do you grant that human races, so defined, really exist in the commonsense sense in which forests do? (3) Do you grant that the "folk classifications" which I discuss (not e.g., "Asian Americans, but e.g., East Asians) are consistent with this concept? (4) Do you grant that populations genetic concepts called e.g., ancestry groups -- which delineate groups using innumerous ancestrally informative molecular markers, cut out comparable classes? (5) Do you grant that there is a striking conceptual resemblance between my concept and these population genetic ones? (6) Do you grant that many researchers find the latter to be utile? If yes, what possibly then do we disagree about? It can only be on whether the concept I am discussing matches with some older concept called race. Well, I have showed, I think, that it descends from this concept. It's easy to trace the concept's lineage. The only issue then is whether there was so much modification along the way that the concept temporally speciated and thus "should" not be recognized as representing one concept. I explain why I think that the concept was cross temporally stable enough to be recognized as one and the same basic concept (cf, atoms, elements, and species) and I show that many common objections, e.g., that race was commonly thought to be...[inset outlandish entity], are absurd. We both agree that there have been modifications -- and I accept that the issue is a matter of judgement and that you may come to a different conclusion. Though, I would like to hear a sound case.

Now, regarding Dobzhansky try "Mankind Evolving" (1963): http://www.unz.org/Pub/DobzhanskyTheodosius-1962

Here, again, he calls the major human races "subspecies". Interestingly, he has a section called "races, classes, and castes as mendelian populations" in which he is careful to not equate classes and castes with races, though he does not explain why. He does note again that race classifications should be based on all variable traits. (This is the third piece in which he says this.) And he argues that it would be absurd to class siblings or parents-offspring dyads into separate races. (This is the second book in which he says this.) This is all rather puzzling. If social classes are mendelian population (which obviously differ on average) why are they not races? Yet if they are races, why could not sibs be of different races -- surely some of my sibs are in very different social classes than I. And if we delineated groups by all variable genes, there is no way that social classes would form races in multiethnic countries since the genetic variance between social classes -- defined by a few traits -- is much less than that between groups defined by propinquity of descent. I have to say that either I am utterly confused or that Dobzhansky's concept is somewhat so and that Gannet missed this.



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Messages In This Thread
[OBG] Nature of Race Full - by Chuck - 2014-Dec-25, 21:33:36
MERGE - by Emil - 2015-Apr-08, 16:15:44
RE: [OBG] Nature of Race Full Version [merged] - by Chuck - 2015-Apr-08, 18:51:44
RE: [OBG] Nature of Race Full - by Chuck - 2015-Apr-08, 18:58:05
RE: [OBG] Nature of Race Full - by Emil - 2015-Apr-11, 02:04:42
RE: [OBG] Nature of Race Full - by Chuck - 2015-Apr-11, 04:49:13
RE: [OBG] Nature of Race Full - by Emil - 2015-Apr-11, 16:19:20
RE: [OBG] Nature of Race Full - by Chuck - 2015-Apr-12, 23:00:17
RE: [OBG] Nature of Race Full - by Meng Hu - 2015-Apr-15, 00:59:14
RE: [OBG] Nature of Race Full - by Chuck - 2015-Apr-16, 18:34:45
RE: [OBG] Nature of Race Full - by Chuck - 2015-Apr-19, 00:55:36
RE: [OBG] Nature of Race Full - by Chuck - 2015-May-01, 04:37:45
RE: [OBG] Nature of Race Full - by Chuck - 2015-May-04, 20:55:12
RE: [OBG] Nature of Race Full - by Krom - 2015-Apr-16, 19:52:02
RE: [OBG] Nature of Race Full - by Chuck - 2015-Apr-16, 21:53:26
RE: [OBG] Nature of Race Full - by Krom - 2015-Apr-16, 23:16:17
RE: [OBG] Nature of Race Full - by Chuck - 2015-Apr-17, 01:21:26
RE: [OBG] Nature of Race Full - by Chuck - 2015-Apr-17, 02:12:18
RE: [OBG] Nature of Race Full - by Krom - 2015-Apr-17, 05:33:25
RE: [OBG] Nature of Race Full - by Chuck - 2015-Apr-17, 11:03:04
RE: [OBG] Nature of Race Full - by Chuck - 2015-Apr-17, 18:27:27
RE: [OBG] Nature of Race Full - by Krom - 2015-Apr-17, 21:22:57
RE: [OBG] Nature of Race Full - by Chuck - 2015-Apr-17, 23:14:06
RE: [OBG] Nature of Race Full - by Krom - 2015-Apr-17, 19:54:09
RE: [OBG] Nature of Race Full - by Krom - 2015-Apr-18, 05:23:19
RE: [OBG] Nature of Race Full - by Chuck - 2015-Apr-18, 21:54:55
RE: [OBG] Nature of Race Full - by Krom - 2015-Apr-20, 19:56:33
RE: [OBG] Nature of Race Full - by Chuck - 2015-Apr-20, 20:48:01
RE: [OBG] Nature of Race Full - by Chuck - 2015-Apr-20, 20:54:17
RE: [OBG] Nature of Race Full - by Krom - 2015-Apr-28, 22:35:42
RE: [OBG] Nature of Race Full - by Chuck - 2015-Apr-28, 23:40:08
RE: [OBG] Nature of Race Full - by Krom - 2015-Apr-30, 00:41:29
RE: [OBG] Nature of Race Full - by Chuck - 2015-Apr-30, 01:09:46
RE: [OBG] Nature of Race Full - by Krom - 2015-Apr-30, 00:59:36
RE: [OBG] Nature of Race Full - by Krom - 2015-Apr-28, 22:43:17
RE: [OBG] Nature of Race Full - by Chuck - 2015-Apr-29, 00:02:52
RE: [OBG] Nature of Race Full - by Krom - 2015-May-01, 00:12:32
RE: [OBG] Nature of Race Full - by Chuck - 2015-May-01, 03:26:58
RE: [OBG] Nature of Race Full - by Emil - 2015-May-01, 03:48:15
RE: [OBG] Nature of Race Full - by Chuck - 2015-May-01, 05:10:05
RE: [OBG] Nature of Race Full - by Duxide - 2015-May-04, 19:58:20
RE: [OBG] Nature of Race Full - by Chuck - 2015-May-05, 04:40:56
RE: [OBG] Nature of Race Full - by Emil - 2015-May-05, 17:53:59
RE: [OBG] Nature of Race Full - by Chuck - 2015-May-05, 17:58:11
RE: [OBG] Nature of Race Full - by Emil - 2015-May-05, 19:44:32
RE: [OBG] Nature of Race Full - by Peter Frost - 2015-May-05, 20:15:03
RE: [OBG] Nature of Race Full - by Chuck - 2015-May-05, 22:19:30
RE: [OBG] Nature of Race Full - by Duxide - 2015-May-06, 10:15:17
RE: [OBG] Nature of Race Full - by Chuck - 2015-May-07, 03:35:54
RE: [OBG] Nature of Race Full - by Duxide - 2015-May-07, 11:27:55
RE: [OBG] Nature of Race Full - by Chuck - 2015-May-08, 01:13:58
RE: [OBG] Nature of Race Full - by Duxide - 2015-May-08, 10:24:42
RE: [OBG] Nature of Race Full - by Chuck - 2015-May-08, 12:05:15
RE: [OBG] Nature of Race Full - by Duxide - 2015-May-08, 12:28:44
RE: [OBG] Nature of Race Full - by Chuck - 2015-May-25, 00:29:25
RE: [OBG] Nature of Race Full - by Chuck - 2015-May-25, 00:59:36
RE: [OBG] Nature of Race Full - by Duxide - 2015-Jun-01, 15:56:30
RE: [OBG] Nature of Race Full - by Peter Frost - 2015-May-06, 18:41:23
RE: [OBG] Nature of Race Full - by Chuck - 2015-May-07, 03:12:22
RE: [OBG] Nature of Race Full - by Emil - 2015-May-07, 08:24:39
RE: [OBG] Nature of Race Full - by Duxide - 2015-May-31, 09:57:34
RE: [OBG] Nature of Race Full - by Chuck - 2015-May-31, 19:04:56
RE: [OBG] Nature of Race Full - by Chuck - 2015-Jun-02, 23:09:46
RE: [OBG] Nature of Race Full - by Meng Hu - 2015-Jun-01, 07:48:29
RE: [OBG] Nature of Race Full - by Chuck - 2015-Jun-01, 13:16:31
RE: [OBG] Nature of Race Full - by Chuck - 2015-Jun-02, 03:15:41
RE: [OBG] Nature of Race Full - by Emil - 2015-Jun-01, 16:21:27
RE: [OBG] Nature of Race Full - by Chuck - 2015-Jun-02, 00:00:10
RE: [OBG] Nature of Race Full - by Duxide - 2015-Jun-02, 11:28:25
RE: [OBG] Nature of Race Full - by Emil - 2015-Jun-02, 01:14:55
RE: [OBG] Nature of Race Full - by Meng Hu - 2015-Jun-05, 09:23:18
RE: [OBG] Nature of Race Full - by Duxide - 2015-Jun-05, 09:40:03
RE: [OBG] Nature of Race Full - by Duxide - 2015-Jun-16, 22:46:04
RE: [OBG] Nature of Race Full - by Chuck - 2015-Jun-17, 03:53:12
RE: [OBG] Nature of Race Full - by Duxide - 2015-Jun-17, 09:24:01
RE: [OBG] Nature of Race Full - by Chuck - 2015-Jun-17, 13:37:10
RE: [OBG] Nature of Race Full - by Duxide - 2015-Jun-17, 13:45:53
RE: [OBG] Nature of Race Full - by Chuck - 2015-Jun-17, 13:54:27
RE: [OBG] Nature of Race Full - by Duxide - 2015-Jun-17, 13:56:49
RE: [OBG] Nature of Race Full - by Chuck - 2015-Jun-17, 16:25:12
RE: [OBG] Nature of Race Full - by Chuck - 2015-Jun-18, 04:45:00
RE: [OBG] Nature of Race Full - by Krom - 2015-Jul-03, 20:17:56
RE: [OBG] Nature of Race Full - by Chuck - 2015-Jul-03, 20:44:49
RE: [OBG] Nature of Race Full - by Chuck - 2015-Jul-03, 20:52:02
RE: [OBG] Nature of Race Full - by Krom - 2015-Jul-03, 23:26:48
RE: [OBG] Nature of Race Full - by Chuck - 2015-Jul-04, 01:09:26
RE: [OBG] Nature of Race Full - by Krom - 2015-Jul-04, 06:18:04
RE: [OBG] Nature of Race Full - by Chuck - 2015-Jul-04, 07:43:21
RE: [OBG] Nature of Race Full - by Krom - 2015-Jul-04, 17:48:48
RE: [OBG] Nature of Race Full - by Chuck - 2015-Jul-05, 03:47:08
RE: [OBG] Nature of Race Full - by Krom - 2015-Jul-08, 00:28:49
RE: [OBG] Nature of Race Full - by Chuck - 2015-Jul-08, 01:58:26
RE: [OBG] Nature of Race Full - by Chuck - 2015-Jul-04, 01:13:03
RE: [OBG] Nature of Race Full - by Chuck - 2015-Jul-04, 02:51:50
RE: [OBG] Nature of Race Full - by Krom - 2015-Jul-04, 05:07:16
RE: [OBG] Nature of Race Full - by Chuck - 2015-Jul-04, 09:25:48
RE: [OBG] Nature of Race Full - by Chuck - 2015-Jul-04, 09:34:02
RE: [OBG] Nature of Race Full - by Krom - 2015-Jul-04, 06:28:04
RE: [OBG] Nature of Race Full - by Chuck - 2015-Jul-04, 07:54:45
RE: [OBG] Nature of Race Full - by Emil - 2015-Jul-04, 15:02:47
RE: [OBG] Nature of Race Full - by Krom - 2015-Jul-04, 18:32:01
RE: [OBG] Nature of Race Full - by Chuck - 2015-Jul-05, 04:23:23
RE: [OBG] Nature of Race Full - by Krom - 2015-Jul-08, 01:07:59
RE: [OBG] Nature of Race Full - by Chuck - 2015-Jul-08, 02:22:31
RE: [OBG] Nature of Race Full - by Krom - 2015-Jul-05, 03:34:22
RE: [OBG] Nature of Race Full - by Chuck - 2015-Jul-06, 08:33:26
RE: [OBG] Nature of Race Full - by Krom - 2015-Jul-08, 23:42:19
RE: [OBG] Nature of Race Full - by Chuck - 2015-Jul-09, 07:34:26
RE: [OBG] Nature of Race Full - by Krom - 2015-Jul-09, 22:08:22
RE: [OBG] Nature of Race Full - by Chuck - 2015-Jul-10, 06:52:42
RE: [OBG] Nature of Race Full - by Chuck - 2015-Jul-09, 10:04:03
RE: [OBG] Nature of Race Full - by Krom - 2015-Jul-10, 22:33:07
RE: [OBG] Nature of Race Full - by Chuck - 2015-Jul-12, 06:44:38
RE: [OBG] Nature of Race Full - by Chuck - 2015-Jul-16, 00:23:12
RE: [OBG] Nature of Race Full - by Krom - 2015-Jul-11, 03:30:25
RE: [OBG] Nature of Race Full - by Chuck - 2015-Jul-12, 07:12:54
RE: [OBG] Nature of Race Full - by Krom - 2015-Jul-19, 16:25:25
RE: [OBG] Nature of Race Full - by Chuck - 2015-Jul-19, 19:00:56
RE: [OBG] Nature of Race Full - by Chuck - 2015-Jul-19, 20:46:02
RE: [OBG] Nature of Race Full - by Krom - 2015-Jul-19, 16:45:01
RE: [OBG] Nature of Race Full - by Chuck - 2015-Jul-19, 19:09:21
RE: [OBG] Nature of Race Full - by Chuck - 2015-Jul-19, 19:44:39
RE: [OBG] Nature of Race Full - by Krom - 2015-Jul-19, 23:18:09
RE: [OBG] Nature of Race Full - by Chuck - 2015-Jul-20, 02:54:39
RE: [OBG] Nature of Race Full - by Krom - 2015-Jul-20, 21:19:51
RE: [OBG] Nature of Race Full - by Chuck - 2015-Jul-21, 00:47:58
RE: [OBG] Nature of Race Full - by Krom - 2015-Jul-22, 20:38:19
RE: [OBG] Nature of Race Full - by Chuck - 2015-Jul-22, 21:55:06
RE: [OBG] Nature of Race Full - by Krom - 2015-Jul-23, 06:03:13
RE: [OBG] Nature of Race Full - by Chuck - 2015-Jul-23, 07:27:54
RE: [OBG] Nature of Race Full - by Krom - 2015-Jul-19, 23:24:47
RE: [OBG] Nature of Race Full - by Krom - 2015-Jul-20, 19:51:10
RE: [OBG] Nature of Race Full - by Chuck - 2015-Jul-21, 04:59:19
RE: [OBG] Nature of Race Full - by Chuck - 2015-Jul-21, 05:26:57
RE: [OBG] Nature of Race Full - by Krom - 2015-Jul-20, 20:27:08
RE: [OBG] Nature of Race Full - by Chuck - 2015-Jul-21, 02:28:40
RE: [OBG] Nature of Race Full - by Emil - 2015-Jul-23, 04:19:50
RE: [OBG] Nature of Race Full - by Krom - 2015-Jul-23, 04:26:23
RE: [OBG] Nature of Race Full - by Chuck - 2015-Jul-23, 06:18:36
RE: [OBG] Nature of Race Full - by Zoidberg - 2015-Jul-23, 06:42:23
RE: [OBG] Nature of Race Full - by Chuck - 2015-Jul-23, 20:23:16
RE: [OBG] Nature of Race Full - by Krom - 2015-Jul-27, 00:01:36
RE: [OBG] Nature of Race Full - by Krom - 2015-Jul-27, 02:09:46
RE: [OBG] Nature of Race Full - by Chuck - 2015-Jul-27, 06:55:20
RE: [OBG] Nature of Race Full - by Krom - 2015-Jul-27, 17:56:05
RE: [OBG] Nature of Race Full - by Peter Frost - 2015-Jul-27, 23:14:46
RE: [OBG] Nature of Race Full - by Krom - 2015-Jul-28, 23:38:20
RE: [OBG] Nature of Race Full - by Chuck - 2015-Jul-28, 04:00:55
RE: [OBG] Nature of Race Full - by Krom - 2015-Jul-28, 22:01:51
RE: [OBG] Nature of Race Full - by Chuck - 2015-Jul-29, 02:58:26
RE: [OBG] Nature of Race Full - by Krom - 2015-Jul-28, 23:05:52
RE: [OBG] Nature of Race Full - by Krom - 2015-Jul-28, 23:26:34
RE: [OBG] Nature of Race Full - by Chuck - 2015-Jul-29, 07:49:04
RE: [OBG] Nature of Race Full - by Krom - 2015-Jul-29, 12:58:37
RE: [OBG] Nature of Race Full - by Chuck - 2015-Jul-29, 23:19:42
RE: [OBG] Nature of Race Full - by Peter Frost - 2015-Jul-30, 01:02:30
RE: [OBG] Nature of Race Full - by Krom - 2015-Jul-30, 04:35:03
RE: [OBG] Nature of Race Full - by Chuck - 2015-Jul-30, 05:46:57
RE: [OBG] Nature of Race Full - by Chuck - 2015-Jul-30, 18:37:39
RE: [OBG] Nature of Race Full - by Krom - 2015-Jul-29, 17:27:43
RE: [OBG] Nature of Race Full - by Chuck - 2015-Jul-29, 22:57:38
RE: [OBG] Nature of Race Full - by Krom - 2015-Jul-30, 04:15:21
RE: [OBG] Nature of Race Full - by Chuck - 2015-Jul-30, 04:36:23
RE: [OBG] Nature of Race Full - by Krom - 2015-Jul-30, 04:41:55
RE: [OBG] Nature of Race Full - by Chuck - 2015-Jul-30, 10:05:05
RE: [OBG] Nature of Race Full - by Krom - 2015-Jul-30, 04:57:07
RE: [OBG] Nature of Race Full - by Chuck - 2015-Jul-30, 09:45:14
RE: [OBG] Nature of Race Full - by Krom - 2015-Aug-28, 05:52:36
RE: [OBG] Nature of Race Full - by Krom - 2015-Aug-28, 05:58:14
RE: [OBG] Nature of Race Full - by Krom - 2015-Aug-28, 06:00:01
RE: [OBG] Nature of Race Full - by Krom - 2015-Aug-28, 06:08:11
RE: [OBG] Nature of Race Full - by Krom - 2015-Aug-28, 16:47:41
RE: [OBG] Nature of Race Full - by Chuck - 2015-Aug-28, 20:07:31
RE: [OBG] Nature of Race Full - by Krom - 2015-Aug-29, 02:27:26
RE: [OBG] Nature of Race Full - by Chuck - 2015-Aug-29, 05:54:07
RE: [OBG] Nature of Race Full - by Chuck - 2015-Aug-29, 16:20:57
RE: [OBG] Nature of Race Full - by Chuck - 2015-Sep-09, 20:37:55
Behavior - by Emil - 2015-Aug-28, 21:13:26
RE: [OBG] Nature of Race Full - by Krom - 2015-Aug-30, 18:19:48
RE: [OBG] Nature of Race Full - by Chuck - 2015-Aug-30, 20:04:25
RE: [OBG] Nature of Race Full - by Krom - 2015-Aug-31, 13:47:19
RE: [OBG] Nature of Race Full - by Chuck - 2015-Aug-31, 19:04:52
RE: [OBG] Nature of Race Full - by Krom - 2015-Sep-01, 00:42:22
RE: [OBG] Nature of Race Full - by Chuck - 2015-Sep-01, 18:28:46
RE: [OBG] Nature of Race Full - by Chuck - 2015-Aug-31, 20:53:48
RE: [OBG] Nature of Race Full - by Chuck - 2015-Aug-31, 22:18:55
RE: [OBG] Nature of Race Full - by Krom - 2015-Aug-31, 19:15:58
RE: [OBG] Nature of Race Full - by Chuck - 2015-Aug-31, 19:21:59
RE: [OBG] Nature of Race Full - by Chuck - 2015-Aug-31, 19:39:33
RE: [OBG] Nature of Race Full - by Chuck - 2015-Aug-31, 20:24:58
RE: [OBG] Nature of Race Full - by Krom - 2015-Aug-31, 23:30:23
RE: [OBG] Nature of Race Full - by Krom - 2015-Sep-01, 00:24:17
RE: [OBG] Nature of Race Full - by Krom - 2015-Sep-01, 16:37:55
RE: [OBG] Nature of Race Full - by Chuck - 2015-Sep-01, 19:15:17
RE: [OBG] Nature of Race Full - by Krom - 2015-Sep-07, 00:45:05
RE: [OBG] Nature of Race Full - by Krom - 2015-Sep-07, 00:54:23
RE: [OBG] Nature of Race Full - by Emil - 2015-Sep-07, 03:44:27
RE: [OBG] Nature of Race Full - by Krom - 2015-Sep-08, 04:53:44
RE: [OBG] Nature of Race Full - by Chuck - 2015-Sep-09, 19:20:13
RE: [OBG] Nature of Race Full - by Krom - 2015-Sep-07, 00:58:47
RE: [OBG] Nature of Race Full - by Chuck - 2015-Sep-08, 00:34:45
RE: [OBG] Nature of Race Full - by Krom - 2015-Sep-07, 01:02:11
RE: [OBG] Nature of Race Full - by Krom - 2015-Sep-07, 01:04:36
RE: [OBG] Nature of Race Full - by Krom - 2015-Sep-08, 04:13:42
RE: [OBG] Nature of Race Full - by Chuck - 2015-Sep-09, 04:29:01
RE: [OBG] Nature of Race Full - by Krom - 2015-Sep-08, 04:28:46
RE: [OBG] Nature of Race Full - by Chuck - 2015-Sep-09, 05:15:14
RE: [OBG] Nature of Race Full - by Krom - 2015-Sep-08, 13:28:18
RE: [OBG] Nature of Race Full - by Krom - 2015-Sep-08, 13:44:55
RE: [OBG] Nature of Race Full - by Krom - 2015-Sep-09, 04:40:50
RE: [OBG] Nature of Race Full - by Chuck - 2015-Sep-09, 05:46:38
RE: [OBG] Nature of Race Full - by Chuck - 2015-Sep-09, 18:15:32
RE: [OBG] Nature of Race Full - by Krom - 2015-Sep-09, 05:27:14
RE: [OBG] Nature of Race Full - by Chuck - 2015-Sep-09, 06:21:26
RE: [OBG] Nature of Race Full - by Krom - 2015-Sep-09, 20:52:04
RE: [OBG] Nature of Race Full - by Chuck - 2015-Sep-09, 22:37:50
RE: [OBG] Nature of Race Full - by Chuck - 2015-Sep-09, 23:36:59
RE: [OBG] Nature of Race Full - by Krom - 2015-Sep-10, 00:43:47
RE: [OBG] Nature of Race Full - by Chuck - 2015-Sep-10, 00:58:25
RE: [OBG] Nature of Race Full - by Chuck - 2015-Sep-10, 01:22:48
RE: [OBG] Nature of Race Full - by Chuck - 2015-Sep-10, 03:33:57
RE: [OBG] Nature of Race Full - by Krom - 2015-Sep-10, 01:42:59
RE: [OBG] Nature of Race Full - by Chuck - 2015-Sep-10, 03:07:49
RE: [OBG] Nature of Race Full - by Chuck - 2015-Sep-10, 03:55:57
RE: [OBG] Nature of Race Full - by Krom - 2015-Sep-10, 04:36:06
RE: [OBG] Nature of Race Full - by Chuck - 2015-Sep-10, 06:27:34
RE: [OBG] Nature of Race Full - by Krom - 2015-Sep-10, 09:21:20
RE: [OBG] Nature of Race Full - by Chuck - 2015-Sep-11, 05:03:18
RE: [OBG] Nature of Race Full - by Krom - 2015-Sep-10, 17:38:21
RE: [OBG] Nature of Race Full - by Chuck - 2015-Sep-11, 01:55:34
RE: [OBG] Nature of Race Full - by Krom - 2015-Sep-10, 18:33:31
RE: [OBG] Nature of Race Full - by Chuck - 2015-Sep-11, 05:27:39
RE: [OBG] Nature of Race Full - by Krom - 2015-Sep-11, 23:46:42
RE: [OBG] Nature of Race Full - by Krom - 2015-Sep-10, 18:48:03
RE: [OBG] Nature of Race Full - by Chuck - 2015-Sep-11, 06:48:48
RE: [OBG] Nature of Race Full - by Krom - 2015-Sep-11, 22:38:06
RE: [OBG] Nature of Race Full - by Krom - 2015-Sep-11, 22:39:16
RE: [OBG] Nature of Race Full - by Krom - 2015-Sep-11, 22:59:31
RE: [OBG] Nature of Race Full - by Krom - 2015-Sep-11, 23:07:35
RE: [OBG] Nature of Race Full - by Krom - 2015-Sep-11, 23:53:26
RE: [OBG] Nature of Race Full - by Krom - 2015-Sep-12, 00:04:04
RE: [OBG] Nature of Race Full - by Chuck - 2015-Sep-13, 06:40:18
RE: [OBG] Nature of Race Full - by General-Factor analyst - 2016-Jan-21, 02:57:26
RE: [OBG] Nature of Race Full - by Chuck - 2016-Jan-21, 03:21:15
RE: [OBG] Nature of Race Full - by Duxide - 2016-Jan-23, 19:14:09
RE: [OBG] Nature of Race Full - by General-Factor analyst - 2016-Jan-23, 21:07:04
RE: [OBG] Nature of Race Full - by Chuck - 2016-Jan-23, 21:30:14
RE: [OBG] Nature of Race Full - by General-Factor analyst - 2016-Feb-11, 01:35:21
RE: [OBG] Nature of Race Full - by General-Factor analyst - 2016-Feb-11, 02:33:20
RE: [OBG] Nature of Race Full - by Chuck - 2016-Feb-11, 06:45:54
RE: [OBG] Nature of Race Full - by General-Factor analyst - 2016-Feb-11, 07:37:46
RE: [OBG] Nature of Race Full - by Emil - 2016-Feb-11, 09:29:40
[OBG] Nature of Race part 1 & 2 - by Chuck - 2014-Dec-27, 02:48:10
[OBG] Nature of Race part 4 - by Chuck - 2014-Dec-30, 23:58:10
RE: Nature of Race part 4 - by Peter Frost - 2014-Dec-31, 18:11:25
RE: Nature of Race part 4 - by Chuck - 2015-Jan-01, 00:20:51
RE: Nature of Race part 4 - by Chuck - 2015-Jan-01, 15:37:35
RE: Nature of Race part 4 - by Peter Frost - 2015-Jan-01, 23:36:17
RE: Nature of Race part 2 - by Chuck - 2015-Jan-04, 07:01:40
RE: Nature of Race part 1 - by Emil - 2015-Jan-04, 07:27:12
RE: Nature of Race part 1 - by Meng Hu - 2015-Jan-05, 18:57:40
RE: Nature of Race part 1 - by Chuck - 2015-Jan-08, 00:15:45
RE: Nature of Race part 1 - by Meng Hu - 2015-Jan-09, 01:16:53
[OBG] Nature of Race, part 3 - by Chuck - 2015-Jan-09, 23:33:46
RE: Nature of Race, part 3 - by Peter Frost - 2015-Jan-11, 04:16:31
RE: Nature of Race part 4 - by Chuck - 2015-Jan-11, 05:19:49
RE: Nature of Race, part 3 - by Chuck - 2015-Jan-11, 05:51:03
RE: Nature of Race, part 3 - by Peter Frost - 2015-Jan-11, 18:15:29
RE: Nature of Race part 4 - by Peter Frost - 2015-Jan-11, 18:39:54
RE: Nature of Race part 4 - by Chuck - 2015-Jan-11, 21:13:22
RE: Nature of Race, part 3 - by Chuck - 2015-Jan-11, 23:47:15
RE: Nature of Race, part 3 - by Chuck - 2015-Jan-12, 00:17:13
RE: Nature of Race part 4 - by Emil - 2015-Jan-12, 03:56:59
RE: Nature of Race part 4 - by Peter Frost - 2015-Jan-12, 06:47:22
RE: Nature of Race part 4 - by Emil - 2015-Jan-12, 18:31:23
RE: Nature of Race part 4 - by Duxide - 2015-Jan-12, 18:44:54
RE: Nature of Race part 4 - by Chuck - 2015-Jan-12, 21:51:03
RE: Nature of Race part 4 - by Chuck - 2015-Jan-12, 22:08:59
[OBG] Nature of Race part 5 - by Chuck - 2015-Jan-14, 04:25:25
RE: Nature of Race part 4 - by Duxide - 2015-Jan-14, 10:35:21
RE: Nature of Race part 4 - by Chuck - 2015-Jan-16, 21:34:48
RE: Nature of Race part 4 - by Peter Frost - 2015-Jan-17, 21:50:13
RE: Nature of Race part 4 - by Chuck - 2015-Jan-18, 02:46:31
RE: Nature of Race, part 3 - by Meng Hu - 2015-Jan-18, 04:59:02
RE: Nature of Race part 2 - by Meng Hu - 2015-Jan-18, 06:00:51
RE: Nature of Race part 4 - by Peter Frost - 2015-Jan-19, 03:19:58
RE: Nature of Race part 4 - by Chuck - 2015-Jan-19, 21:02:17
RE: Nature of Race part 4 - by Peter Frost - 2015-Jan-20, 18:45:25
RE: Nature of Race part 2 - by Chuck - 2015-Jan-21, 02:21:31
RE: Nature of Race part 4 - by Chuck - 2015-Jan-21, 02:59:27
RE: Nature of Race part 4 - by Chuck - 2015-Jan-21, 03:00:44
RE: Nature of Race part 4 - by Duxide - 2015-Jan-21, 11:00:51
RE: Nature of Race, part 3 - by Chuck - 2015-Jan-22, 00:06:32
RE: Nature of Race, part 3 - by Meng Hu - 2015-Jan-22, 03:26:56
RE: Nature of Race part 4 - by Chuck - 2015-Jan-22, 06:12:47
Some comments - by Emil - 2015-Jan-23, 21:01:32
RE: Nature of Race part 4 - by Peter Frost - 2015-Jan-24, 02:03:48
RE: Nature of Race, part 3 - by Chuck - 2015-Jan-24, 06:57:50
Comments on version 3 - by Emil - 2015-Jan-24, 07:34:24
RE: Nature of Race part 4 - by Meng Hu - 2015-Jan-25, 05:19:51
RE: Nature of Race part 1 - by Chuck - 2015-Jan-25, 07:14:06
RE: Nature of Race part 2 - by Chuck - 2015-Jan-26, 02:29:36
RE: Nature of Race part 4 - by Chuck - 2015-Jan-26, 06:12:38
RE: Nature of Race, part 3 - by Meng Hu - 2015-Jan-28, 04:42:41
RE: Nature of Race, part 3 - by Chuck - 2015-Jan-30, 04:47:18
RE: Nature of Race part 1 - by Dalliard - 2015-Feb-04, 16:44:13
RE: [OBG] Nature of Race part 1 - by Chuck - 2015-Feb-12, 01:16:14
[OBG] Nature of Race part 6 - by Chuck - 2015-Mar-05, 22:39:52
RE: [OBG] Nature of Race part 6 - by Emil - 2015-Mar-06, 01:33:45
RE: [OBG] Nature of Race part 6 - by Chuck - 2015-Mar-06, 01:36:16
RE: [OBG] Nature of Race part 6 - by Emil - 2015-Mar-06, 04:23:24
RE: [OBG] Nature of Race part 6 - by Chuck - 2015-Mar-06, 22:05:46
RE: [OBG] Nature of Race part 6 - by Emil - 2015-Mar-06, 23:43:06
RE: [OBG] Nature of Race part 6 - by Chuck - 2015-Mar-06, 23:59:47
RE: [OBG] Nature of Race part 4 - by Meng Hu - 2015-Mar-07, 00:16:16
RE: [OBG] Nature of Race part 6 - by Emil - 2015-Mar-07, 03:00:17
RE: [OBG] Nature of Race part 4 - by Chuck - 2015-Mar-07, 22:28:41
RE: [OBG] Nature of Race part 4 - by Meng Hu - 2015-Mar-08, 03:25:20
RE: [OBG] Nature of Race part 4 - by Chuck - 2015-Mar-08, 05:51:23
RE: [OBG] Nature of Race part 5 - by Emil - 2015-Mar-09, 03:27:19
RE: [OBG] Nature of Race part 5 - by Chuck - 2015-Mar-09, 05:09:23
Nature of Race Full Version - by Chuck - 2015-Mar-13, 23:03:56
RE: Nature of Race Full Version - by B.B. - 2015-Mar-19, 14:00:41
RE: Nature of Race Full Version - by Chuck - 2015-Mar-19, 17:21:11
RE: Nature of Race Full Version - by B.B. - 2015-Mar-20, 13:13:56
RE: Nature of Race Full Version - by Emil - 2015-Mar-19, 19:19:17
RE: Nature of Race Full Version - by Chuck - 2015-Mar-19, 19:27:20
RE: Nature of Race Full Version - by Peter Frost - 2015-Mar-20, 05:18:27
RE: Nature of Race Full Version - by Meng Hu - 2015-Mar-20, 15:45:47
RE: Nature of Race Full Version - by Chuck - 2015-Mar-21, 17:51:14
RE: Nature of Race Full Version - by Chuck - 2015-Mar-24, 00:11:29
RE: Nature of Race Full Version - by Meng Hu - 2015-Mar-28, 21:00:38
RE: Nature of Race Full Version - by Chuck - 2015-Mar-29, 16:27:50
RE: Nature of Race Full Version - by Emil - 2015-Mar-20, 21:26:44
RE: Nature of Race Full Version - by Peter Frost - 2015-Mar-21, 20:50:39
RE: Nature of Race Full Version - by Chuck - 2015-Mar-21, 21:49:27
RE: Nature of Race Full Version - by Peter Frost - 2015-Mar-21, 22:32:28
RE: Nature of Race Full Version - by Chuck - 2015-Mar-23, 02:14:31
RE: Nature of Race Full Version - by Peter Frost - 2015-Mar-24, 22:31:05
RE: Nature of Race Full Version - by Chuck - 2015-Mar-25, 01:03:09
RE: Nature of Race Full Version - by Peter Frost - 2015-Mar-25, 03:05:50
RE: Nature of Race Full Version - by Chuck - 2015-Mar-25, 03:20:05
RE: Nature of Race Full Version - by Emil - 2015-Mar-25, 16:20:10
RE: Nature of Race Full Version - by Chuck - 2015-Mar-27, 22:49:39
RE: Nature of Race Full Version - by Chuck - 2015-Mar-27, 22:55:52
RE: Nature of Race Full Version - by Emil - 2015-Mar-29, 19:42:54
RE: Nature of Race Full Version - by Chuck - 2015-Mar-30, 03:54:53
RE: Nature of Race Full Version - by Chuck - 2015-Mar-30, 21:27:12
RE: Nature of Race Full Version - by Emil - 2015-Mar-30, 22:04:02
RE: Nature of Race Full Version - by Peter Frost - 2015-Mar-31, 05:18:56
RE: Nature of Race Full Version - by Chuck - 2015-Mar-31, 20:30:42
RE: Nature of Race Full Version - by Peter Frost - 2015-Apr-01, 00:11:29
RE: Nature of Race Full Version - by Chuck - 2015-Apr-01, 01:52:41
RE: Nature of Race Full Version - by Peter Frost - 2015-Apr-01, 18:10:07
RE: Nature of Race Full Version - by Chuck - 2015-Apr-01, 19:59:55
RE: Nature of Race Full Version - by Peter Frost - 2015-Apr-02, 19:14:39
RE: Nature of Race Full Version - by Chuck - 2015-Apr-02, 20:58:27
RE: [OBG] Nature of Race part 1 - by Peter Frost - 2015-Mar-13, 23:06:45
RE: [OBG] Nature of Race part 1 - by Chuck - 2015-Mar-13, 23:12:43
RE: [OBG] Nature of Race part 5 - by Meng Hu - 2015-Mar-16, 04:19:57
RE: [OBG] Nature of Race part 5 - by Chuck - 2015-Mar-17, 00:07:49
RE: [OBG] Nature of Race part 5 - by Chuck - 2015-Mar-17, 02:01:50
RE: [OBG] Nature of Race part 5 - by Meng Hu - 2015-Mar-20, 14:31:07
RE: [OBG] Nature of Race part 5 - by Meng Hu - 2015-Mar-20, 19:21:44
RE: [OBG] Nature of Race part 5 - by Emil - 2015-Mar-20, 20:49:14
RE: [OBG] Nature of Race part 5 - by Meng Hu - 2015-Mar-28, 20:28:56
RE: [OBG] Nature of Race part 5 - by Chuck - 2015-Mar-29, 15:38:20
RE: [OBG] Nature of Race, part 3 - by Meng Hu - 2015-Apr-03, 03:22:30
RE: [OBG] Nature of Race part 2 - by Meng Hu - 2015-Apr-03, 04:19:12
RE: [OBG] Nature of Race, part 3 - by Chuck - 2015-Apr-03, 06:28:02
RE: [OBG] Nature of Race part 2 - by Chuck - 2015-Apr-03, 18:29:11
RE: [OBG] Nature of Race part 2 - by Chuck - 2015-Apr-03, 18:33:02
RE: [OBG] Nature of Race, part 3 - by Meng Hu - 2015-Apr-04, 01:09:17
RE: [OBG] Nature of Race part 2 - by Chuck - 2015-Apr-04, 01:14:15
RE: [OBG] Nature of Race part 1 - by Meng Hu - 2015-Apr-04, 01:59:22
RE: [OBG] Nature of Race part 2 - by Meng Hu - 2015-Apr-04, 02:32:37
RE: [OBG] Nature of Race part 2 - by Chuck - 2015-Apr-04, 04:04:17
RE: [OBG] Nature of Race part 2 - by Chuck - 2015-Apr-04, 04:35:17
RE: [OBG] Nature of Race part 1 - by Chuck - 2015-Apr-04, 23:26:01
RE: [OBG] Nature of Race part 2 - by Meng Hu - 2015-Apr-06, 02:02:50
RE: [OBG] Nature of Race part 5 - by Meng Hu - 2015-Apr-06, 03:39:43
RE: [OBG] Nature of Race part 2 - by Chuck - 2015-Apr-06, 20:07:05
RE: [OBG] Nature of Race part 5 - by Chuck - 2015-Apr-06, 21:32:08
RE: [OBG] Nature of Race Full - by Meng Hu - 2015-Apr-10, 01:36:38
RE: [OBG] Nature of Race Full - by Chuck - 2015-Apr-10, 05:56:50
RE: [OBG] Nature of Race Full - by Chuck - 2015-Apr-10, 06:27:06
RE: [OBG] Nature of Race Full - by Meng Hu - 2015-Apr-11, 00:28:43
RE: [OBG] Nature of Race Full - by Chuck - 2015-Apr-11, 01:11:50
RE: [OBG] Nature of Race Full - by Meng Hu - 2015-Apr-13, 02:55:44
RE: [OBG] Nature of Race Full - by Chuck - 2015-Apr-13, 07:08:01
RE: [OBG] Nature of Race Full - by Chuck - 2015-Apr-13, 21:41:27
RE: [OBG] Nature of Race Full - by Chuck - 2015-Apr-14, 01:50:31
 
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