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[OBG] Nature of Race Full

(2015-Jul-09, 22:08:22)Krom Wrote: Not sure how that helps, the population genetics view on race is post-typology when race was re-defined.


You need to do some more reading because you have a poor grasp of the topic. But first, do you agree that "natural division", in the sense I noted, has currency in biology? Now, you claim that the concept of race -- not to be confused with that of species -- has changed fundamentally. I don't see this and I will be happy to explain why, but I would like for you to answer the above question, so that we can make some progress in this discussion.

That said, when you say that race was thought about in a "typological" manner, I have no sense of what you mean. I see the term thrown around, but never well defined. One finds a similar situation with "essentialistic". So, you are going to have to explain your specific meaning.

I do recall reading a critique of "typological" thinking penned by Dobzhansky in the 50s. He criticized Kant's view, in particular, but then by 1970, after he became more acquainted with Kant's writing, he had nothing but praise. By typological thinking, Dobzhansky meant thinking of groups as homogeneous in nature and not recognized polymorphisms and intrapopulational variants. As I explained in my paper, though, race in the sense of divisions of a species was, in fact, not though this way, since races were contrasted with, on the one hand, species and on the other (inconstant) varieties. But perhaps you mean something else.

You say:

Quote:The traditional race concept was discredited, but instead of abandoning it, some scientists tried to salvage the word "race" and apply it to a new theory of race.

Well, in a sense the traditional race concept was "discredited", since races were defined in contrast to species and since the traditional species concept -- which actually was typological and intrinsic essentialistic -- was. In this same sense it could be said that quite a few biological concepts were "discredited" -- specifically everything the was defined in relation to species, such as individual variation (varieties) and higher order categories. One might just say that biology in the sense of natural history was discredited -- which it was, in a sense, with the acceptance of evolutionary theory. But I don't imagine that this is what you mean.

You say:

Quote:It never did. This is a modern redefinition. Show where Linnaeus for example defined a village as a "race" as you are now doing...

Again you need to do some more reading. Linnaeus did not think in terms of race, but rather species and varieties. His geographical groups were understood to be environmental induced degeneration (varieties) of the species type.

Quote:François Bernier (1625–1688) is believed to have developed the first comprehensive classification of humans into distinct races which was published in a French journal article in 1684, Nouvelle division de la terre par les différentes espèces ou races l'habitant, New division of Earth by the different species or races which inhabit it.

Bernier initially referred to his groups as species; in a subsequent edition he changed this to "species or race"; the term "race" only shows up a few times in his article; he never explained what he meant, so we don't know how he conceptualized groups. Unlike Buffon, he wasn't a naturalist and he didn't develop a race concept; and his article had little influence on subsequent writers. Doron (2011) has a fair discussion on Bernier. Try that. Generally, you seem to be confusing terms with concepts here, and variety concepts with race concepts above. But you say:

"None of these 17th-19th century scientists I could find proposed there were millions of races, only about 3 - 20 (i.e. large groupings)."

The "races" of Louis Agassiz would have been "species". Your inability to distinguish between concepts and terms is annoying, especially given that I went out of my way to draw these distinction. As for numbers, typically authors added qualifiers such as "major", "primary", "base", etc. when talking about a few large ones.

As I discussed in my paper, yes, micro groups would generally not have been thought of as being intraspecific races, since they were not seen as being distinguishable. But they can now be distinguished using molecular markers, so it is only logical to extend the concept. I don't say that one must define race this way, of course. I distinguish between a general concept and narrow concepts. The general concept would include such groups and narrow concept would specific subsets e.g., races in the sense of "major races" or "phenotypically identifiable ones".

Quote:Dobzhansky rarely touched upon "Negroids", "Caucasoids" etc. He also gave a very negative book review for Coon's The Origin of Races and criticised him for his crude racial terminology and racism etc.

The first sentence is hogwash. The second is irrelevant to your claim. But I don't feel like counting the number of papers and books in which he "touched upon "Negroids", "Caucasoids" etc", presently. Nonetheless, if you wish to pursue the claim you will have to quantify it -- for example: "In his discussion of race, he only discussed major continental races in 10% of the papers". Make an empirical claim that I can falsify.

Quote:A deme or breeding population is not a formal classification, but a unit of study. This is what you overlooked. So for example we can say a Swede on average is genetically distinct to an Eskimo, but only in regards to the Eskimo.

I very clearly distinguished between taxonomic categories and non-taxa classifications and units of analysis. I noted that "races" were not originally thought of as taxa and, after the creation of the subspecies category, they were not always though of so -- rather only formally recognized races were. This is hardly a new distinction -- it goes back to the 1700s. To put this another way, race, was often used as a unit of analysis. But you say:

Quote:According to Garn (1971) there are hundreds of thousands to millions of "microraces" [= demes in Garn's terminology]. It is not possible to draw this sort of classification, nor would it be needed because we are not dealing with a taxonomy.

Garn (1971) says, for example, "Races, moreover, are natural units and not artificial assemblages...Members of such a breeding population shared a common history...They have been exposed to common dangers, and they are the product of a common environment. For this reasons, and especially with advancing time, members of a race have a common genetic heritage".

While Garn's races may be be demes, it is clear that not all demes are Garn's races, as the members share a common genetic heritage (ancestry) and are not just defined in terms of the probability of descent sharing. If you want you could examine Garn's work in detail. It's difficult to simply defined race, so people who discuss the topic will defined it so and so and then offer qualifications. This was the case with Dobzhansky who didn't always clearly distinguish between races and Mendelian populations.

But you say:

Quote:So my answer is "retrospective genetic populations", "genetic clusters", "bio-geographic ancestry groups", has nothing to do with race and the issue of nested hierarchy aside, I don't see your "biological natural divisions/classification" legitimate because it is a formal classification.

Groups in hierarchical taxonomy represent "biological natural classifications", but, as I noted, "biological natural classifications" -- at least of the genealogical sort -- were from the beginning understood in a more inclusive way. This allows one to speak of non-taxa races as being natural divisions. If you wish I will develop this point more. Just consider that artificial classifications are not apart of hierarchical taxonomy, yet we can still describe non hierarchical taxonomic classifications such as morphs as being these. Since we can describe morphs as artificial, it stands to reason that we can describe non-taxa races as natural. But if you wish, I can provide a more detailed justification.

Quote:Yes, scientists in the 21st century are really pigeon-holing people into "Negroid" or "Caucasoid". That was sarcasm by the way.

Mostly, they use terms like "Oceanian, American, Sub-Saharan African, East Eurasian, and West Eurasian." I was able to find dozens of cluster analysis studies which listed these groups at k=5. So, they certainly are "pigeon-holing people". As for the specific terms, "Caucasoid" and "Mongoloid" show up a bit, though Negroid does less so. Quite a bit of research uses regional groups though -- for example admixture mapping research in the Americas -- European, African, and Amerindian are the groups and labels of choice. Since the groups aren't formally recognized -- i.e., given a latin name -- one can not expect people to label them the same.

Quote:I don't see "so much is being done", when the traditional race concept is virtually dead. This covers all the other points...Your main problem is that you don't seem to want to touch the traditional races with a bargepole, probably because you know it is toxic pseudo-science.

Honestly, I don't know what you are talking about. I specifically stated in the abstract: "Early 18th century race concepts are discussed in detail and are shown to be both sensible and not greatly dissimilar to modern concepts." I hardly threw early concepts under the bus. But perhaps you can elaborate on specific critiques of specific authors' "traditional races".

Quote:As Hochman says:

"The problem with weak versions of racial naturalism is that they do not contrast with anti-realism about biological race. When race naturalists weaken their position they end up agreeing with their opponents about human biology, and defending a trivialised definition of race."

Hochman's argument is silly, I wrote a whole section on it. But, let's start here:
what, to your mind, would constitute a non-trivial, historically consistent race concept. Be specific and explain why.
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Messages In This Thread
[OBG] Nature of Race Full - by Chuck - 2014-Dec-25, 21:33:36
MERGE - by Emil - 2015-Apr-08, 16:15:44
RE: [OBG] Nature of Race Full Version [merged] - by Chuck - 2015-Apr-08, 18:51:44
RE: [OBG] Nature of Race Full - by Chuck - 2015-Apr-08, 18:58:05
RE: [OBG] Nature of Race Full - by Emil - 2015-Apr-11, 02:04:42
RE: [OBG] Nature of Race Full - by Chuck - 2015-Apr-11, 04:49:13
RE: [OBG] Nature of Race Full - by Emil - 2015-Apr-11, 16:19:20
RE: [OBG] Nature of Race Full - by Chuck - 2015-Apr-12, 23:00:17
RE: [OBG] Nature of Race Full - by Meng Hu - 2015-Apr-15, 00:59:14
RE: [OBG] Nature of Race Full - by Chuck - 2015-Apr-16, 18:34:45
RE: [OBG] Nature of Race Full - by Chuck - 2015-Apr-19, 00:55:36
RE: [OBG] Nature of Race Full - by Chuck - 2015-May-01, 04:37:45
RE: [OBG] Nature of Race Full - by Chuck - 2015-May-04, 20:55:12
RE: [OBG] Nature of Race Full - by Krom - 2015-Apr-16, 19:52:02
RE: [OBG] Nature of Race Full - by Chuck - 2015-Apr-16, 21:53:26
RE: [OBG] Nature of Race Full - by Krom - 2015-Apr-16, 23:16:17
RE: [OBG] Nature of Race Full - by Chuck - 2015-Apr-17, 01:21:26
RE: [OBG] Nature of Race Full - by Chuck - 2015-Apr-17, 02:12:18
RE: [OBG] Nature of Race Full - by Krom - 2015-Apr-17, 05:33:25
RE: [OBG] Nature of Race Full - by Chuck - 2015-Apr-17, 11:03:04
RE: [OBG] Nature of Race Full - by Chuck - 2015-Apr-17, 18:27:27
RE: [OBG] Nature of Race Full - by Krom - 2015-Apr-17, 21:22:57
RE: [OBG] Nature of Race Full - by Chuck - 2015-Apr-17, 23:14:06
RE: [OBG] Nature of Race Full - by Krom - 2015-Apr-17, 19:54:09
RE: [OBG] Nature of Race Full - by Krom - 2015-Apr-18, 05:23:19
RE: [OBG] Nature of Race Full - by Chuck - 2015-Apr-18, 21:54:55
RE: [OBG] Nature of Race Full - by Krom - 2015-Apr-20, 19:56:33
RE: [OBG] Nature of Race Full - by Chuck - 2015-Apr-20, 20:48:01
RE: [OBG] Nature of Race Full - by Chuck - 2015-Apr-20, 20:54:17
RE: [OBG] Nature of Race Full - by Krom - 2015-Apr-28, 22:35:42
RE: [OBG] Nature of Race Full - by Chuck - 2015-Apr-28, 23:40:08
RE: [OBG] Nature of Race Full - by Krom - 2015-Apr-30, 00:41:29
RE: [OBG] Nature of Race Full - by Chuck - 2015-Apr-30, 01:09:46
RE: [OBG] Nature of Race Full - by Krom - 2015-Apr-30, 00:59:36
RE: [OBG] Nature of Race Full - by Krom - 2015-Apr-28, 22:43:17
RE: [OBG] Nature of Race Full - by Chuck - 2015-Apr-29, 00:02:52
RE: [OBG] Nature of Race Full - by Krom - 2015-May-01, 00:12:32
RE: [OBG] Nature of Race Full - by Chuck - 2015-May-01, 03:26:58
RE: [OBG] Nature of Race Full - by Emil - 2015-May-01, 03:48:15
RE: [OBG] Nature of Race Full - by Chuck - 2015-May-01, 05:10:05
RE: [OBG] Nature of Race Full - by Duxide - 2015-May-04, 19:58:20
RE: [OBG] Nature of Race Full - by Chuck - 2015-May-05, 04:40:56
RE: [OBG] Nature of Race Full - by Emil - 2015-May-05, 17:53:59
RE: [OBG] Nature of Race Full - by Chuck - 2015-May-05, 17:58:11
RE: [OBG] Nature of Race Full - by Emil - 2015-May-05, 19:44:32
RE: [OBG] Nature of Race Full - by Peter Frost - 2015-May-05, 20:15:03
RE: [OBG] Nature of Race Full - by Chuck - 2015-May-05, 22:19:30
RE: [OBG] Nature of Race Full - by Duxide - 2015-May-06, 10:15:17
RE: [OBG] Nature of Race Full - by Chuck - 2015-May-07, 03:35:54
RE: [OBG] Nature of Race Full - by Duxide - 2015-May-07, 11:27:55
RE: [OBG] Nature of Race Full - by Chuck - 2015-May-08, 01:13:58
RE: [OBG] Nature of Race Full - by Duxide - 2015-May-08, 10:24:42
RE: [OBG] Nature of Race Full - by Chuck - 2015-May-08, 12:05:15
RE: [OBG] Nature of Race Full - by Duxide - 2015-May-08, 12:28:44
RE: [OBG] Nature of Race Full - by Chuck - 2015-May-25, 00:29:25
RE: [OBG] Nature of Race Full - by Chuck - 2015-May-25, 00:59:36
RE: [OBG] Nature of Race Full - by Duxide - 2015-Jun-01, 15:56:30
RE: [OBG] Nature of Race Full - by Peter Frost - 2015-May-06, 18:41:23
RE: [OBG] Nature of Race Full - by Chuck - 2015-May-07, 03:12:22
RE: [OBG] Nature of Race Full - by Emil - 2015-May-07, 08:24:39
RE: [OBG] Nature of Race Full - by Duxide - 2015-May-31, 09:57:34
RE: [OBG] Nature of Race Full - by Chuck - 2015-May-31, 19:04:56
RE: [OBG] Nature of Race Full - by Chuck - 2015-Jun-02, 23:09:46
RE: [OBG] Nature of Race Full - by Meng Hu - 2015-Jun-01, 07:48:29
RE: [OBG] Nature of Race Full - by Chuck - 2015-Jun-01, 13:16:31
RE: [OBG] Nature of Race Full - by Chuck - 2015-Jun-02, 03:15:41
RE: [OBG] Nature of Race Full - by Emil - 2015-Jun-01, 16:21:27
RE: [OBG] Nature of Race Full - by Chuck - 2015-Jun-02, 00:00:10
RE: [OBG] Nature of Race Full - by Duxide - 2015-Jun-02, 11:28:25
RE: [OBG] Nature of Race Full - by Emil - 2015-Jun-02, 01:14:55
RE: [OBG] Nature of Race Full - by Meng Hu - 2015-Jun-05, 09:23:18
RE: [OBG] Nature of Race Full - by Duxide - 2015-Jun-05, 09:40:03
RE: [OBG] Nature of Race Full - by Duxide - 2015-Jun-16, 22:46:04
RE: [OBG] Nature of Race Full - by Chuck - 2015-Jun-17, 03:53:12
RE: [OBG] Nature of Race Full - by Duxide - 2015-Jun-17, 09:24:01
RE: [OBG] Nature of Race Full - by Chuck - 2015-Jun-17, 13:37:10
RE: [OBG] Nature of Race Full - by Duxide - 2015-Jun-17, 13:45:53
RE: [OBG] Nature of Race Full - by Chuck - 2015-Jun-17, 13:54:27
RE: [OBG] Nature of Race Full - by Duxide - 2015-Jun-17, 13:56:49
RE: [OBG] Nature of Race Full - by Chuck - 2015-Jun-17, 16:25:12
RE: [OBG] Nature of Race Full - by Chuck - 2015-Jun-18, 04:45:00
RE: [OBG] Nature of Race Full - by Krom - 2015-Jul-03, 20:17:56
RE: [OBG] Nature of Race Full - by Chuck - 2015-Jul-03, 20:44:49
RE: [OBG] Nature of Race Full - by Chuck - 2015-Jul-03, 20:52:02
RE: [OBG] Nature of Race Full - by Krom - 2015-Jul-03, 23:26:48
RE: [OBG] Nature of Race Full - by Chuck - 2015-Jul-04, 01:09:26
RE: [OBG] Nature of Race Full - by Krom - 2015-Jul-04, 06:18:04
RE: [OBG] Nature of Race Full - by Chuck - 2015-Jul-04, 07:43:21
RE: [OBG] Nature of Race Full - by Krom - 2015-Jul-04, 17:48:48
RE: [OBG] Nature of Race Full - by Chuck - 2015-Jul-05, 03:47:08
RE: [OBG] Nature of Race Full - by Krom - 2015-Jul-08, 00:28:49
RE: [OBG] Nature of Race Full - by Chuck - 2015-Jul-08, 01:58:26
RE: [OBG] Nature of Race Full - by Chuck - 2015-Jul-04, 01:13:03
RE: [OBG] Nature of Race Full - by Chuck - 2015-Jul-04, 02:51:50
RE: [OBG] Nature of Race Full - by Krom - 2015-Jul-04, 05:07:16
RE: [OBG] Nature of Race Full - by Chuck - 2015-Jul-04, 09:25:48
RE: [OBG] Nature of Race Full - by Chuck - 2015-Jul-04, 09:34:02
RE: [OBG] Nature of Race Full - by Krom - 2015-Jul-04, 06:28:04
RE: [OBG] Nature of Race Full - by Chuck - 2015-Jul-04, 07:54:45
RE: [OBG] Nature of Race Full - by Emil - 2015-Jul-04, 15:02:47
RE: [OBG] Nature of Race Full - by Krom - 2015-Jul-04, 18:32:01
RE: [OBG] Nature of Race Full - by Chuck - 2015-Jul-05, 04:23:23
RE: [OBG] Nature of Race Full - by Krom - 2015-Jul-08, 01:07:59
RE: [OBG] Nature of Race Full - by Chuck - 2015-Jul-08, 02:22:31
RE: [OBG] Nature of Race Full - by Krom - 2015-Jul-05, 03:34:22
RE: [OBG] Nature of Race Full - by Chuck - 2015-Jul-06, 08:33:26
RE: [OBG] Nature of Race Full - by Krom - 2015-Jul-08, 23:42:19
RE: [OBG] Nature of Race Full - by Chuck - 2015-Jul-09, 07:34:26
RE: [OBG] Nature of Race Full - by Krom - 2015-Jul-09, 22:08:22
RE: [OBG] Nature of Race Full - by Chuck - 2015-Jul-10, 06:52:42
RE: [OBG] Nature of Race Full - by Chuck - 2015-Jul-09, 10:04:03
RE: [OBG] Nature of Race Full - by Krom - 2015-Jul-10, 22:33:07
RE: [OBG] Nature of Race Full - by Chuck - 2015-Jul-12, 06:44:38
RE: [OBG] Nature of Race Full - by Chuck - 2015-Jul-16, 00:23:12
RE: [OBG] Nature of Race Full - by Krom - 2015-Jul-11, 03:30:25
RE: [OBG] Nature of Race Full - by Chuck - 2015-Jul-12, 07:12:54
RE: [OBG] Nature of Race Full - by Krom - 2015-Jul-19, 16:25:25
RE: [OBG] Nature of Race Full - by Chuck - 2015-Jul-19, 19:00:56
RE: [OBG] Nature of Race Full - by Chuck - 2015-Jul-19, 20:46:02
RE: [OBG] Nature of Race Full - by Krom - 2015-Jul-19, 16:45:01
RE: [OBG] Nature of Race Full - by Chuck - 2015-Jul-19, 19:09:21
RE: [OBG] Nature of Race Full - by Chuck - 2015-Jul-19, 19:44:39
RE: [OBG] Nature of Race Full - by Krom - 2015-Jul-19, 23:18:09
RE: [OBG] Nature of Race Full - by Chuck - 2015-Jul-20, 02:54:39
RE: [OBG] Nature of Race Full - by Krom - 2015-Jul-20, 21:19:51
RE: [OBG] Nature of Race Full - by Chuck - 2015-Jul-21, 00:47:58
RE: [OBG] Nature of Race Full - by Krom - 2015-Jul-22, 20:38:19
RE: [OBG] Nature of Race Full - by Chuck - 2015-Jul-22, 21:55:06
RE: [OBG] Nature of Race Full - by Krom - 2015-Jul-23, 06:03:13
RE: [OBG] Nature of Race Full - by Chuck - 2015-Jul-23, 07:27:54
RE: [OBG] Nature of Race Full - by Krom - 2015-Jul-19, 23:24:47
RE: [OBG] Nature of Race Full - by Krom - 2015-Jul-20, 19:51:10
RE: [OBG] Nature of Race Full - by Chuck - 2015-Jul-21, 04:59:19
RE: [OBG] Nature of Race Full - by Chuck - 2015-Jul-21, 05:26:57
RE: [OBG] Nature of Race Full - by Krom - 2015-Jul-20, 20:27:08
RE: [OBG] Nature of Race Full - by Chuck - 2015-Jul-21, 02:28:40
RE: [OBG] Nature of Race Full - by Emil - 2015-Jul-23, 04:19:50
RE: [OBG] Nature of Race Full - by Krom - 2015-Jul-23, 04:26:23
RE: [OBG] Nature of Race Full - by Chuck - 2015-Jul-23, 06:18:36
RE: [OBG] Nature of Race Full - by Zoidberg - 2015-Jul-23, 06:42:23
RE: [OBG] Nature of Race Full - by Chuck - 2015-Jul-23, 20:23:16
RE: [OBG] Nature of Race Full - by Krom - 2015-Jul-27, 00:01:36
RE: [OBG] Nature of Race Full - by Krom - 2015-Jul-27, 02:09:46
RE: [OBG] Nature of Race Full - by Chuck - 2015-Jul-27, 06:55:20
RE: [OBG] Nature of Race Full - by Krom - 2015-Jul-27, 17:56:05
RE: [OBG] Nature of Race Full - by Peter Frost - 2015-Jul-27, 23:14:46
RE: [OBG] Nature of Race Full - by Krom - 2015-Jul-28, 23:38:20
RE: [OBG] Nature of Race Full - by Chuck - 2015-Jul-28, 04:00:55
RE: [OBG] Nature of Race Full - by Krom - 2015-Jul-28, 22:01:51
RE: [OBG] Nature of Race Full - by Chuck - 2015-Jul-29, 02:58:26
RE: [OBG] Nature of Race Full - by Krom - 2015-Jul-28, 23:05:52
RE: [OBG] Nature of Race Full - by Krom - 2015-Jul-28, 23:26:34
RE: [OBG] Nature of Race Full - by Chuck - 2015-Jul-29, 07:49:04
RE: [OBG] Nature of Race Full - by Krom - 2015-Jul-29, 12:58:37
RE: [OBG] Nature of Race Full - by Chuck - 2015-Jul-29, 23:19:42
RE: [OBG] Nature of Race Full - by Peter Frost - 2015-Jul-30, 01:02:30
RE: [OBG] Nature of Race Full - by Krom - 2015-Jul-30, 04:35:03
RE: [OBG] Nature of Race Full - by Chuck - 2015-Jul-30, 05:46:57
RE: [OBG] Nature of Race Full - by Chuck - 2015-Jul-30, 18:37:39
RE: [OBG] Nature of Race Full - by Krom - 2015-Jul-29, 17:27:43
RE: [OBG] Nature of Race Full - by Chuck - 2015-Jul-29, 22:57:38
RE: [OBG] Nature of Race Full - by Krom - 2015-Jul-30, 04:15:21
RE: [OBG] Nature of Race Full - by Chuck - 2015-Jul-30, 04:36:23
RE: [OBG] Nature of Race Full - by Krom - 2015-Jul-30, 04:41:55
RE: [OBG] Nature of Race Full - by Chuck - 2015-Jul-30, 10:05:05
RE: [OBG] Nature of Race Full - by Krom - 2015-Jul-30, 04:57:07
RE: [OBG] Nature of Race Full - by Chuck - 2015-Jul-30, 09:45:14
RE: [OBG] Nature of Race Full - by Krom - 2015-Aug-28, 05:52:36
RE: [OBG] Nature of Race Full - by Krom - 2015-Aug-28, 05:58:14
RE: [OBG] Nature of Race Full - by Krom - 2015-Aug-28, 06:00:01
RE: [OBG] Nature of Race Full - by Krom - 2015-Aug-28, 06:08:11
RE: [OBG] Nature of Race Full - by Krom - 2015-Aug-28, 16:47:41
RE: [OBG] Nature of Race Full - by Chuck - 2015-Aug-28, 20:07:31
RE: [OBG] Nature of Race Full - by Krom - 2015-Aug-29, 02:27:26
RE: [OBG] Nature of Race Full - by Chuck - 2015-Aug-29, 05:54:07
RE: [OBG] Nature of Race Full - by Chuck - 2015-Aug-29, 16:20:57
RE: [OBG] Nature of Race Full - by Chuck - 2015-Sep-09, 20:37:55
Behavior - by Emil - 2015-Aug-28, 21:13:26
RE: [OBG] Nature of Race Full - by Krom - 2015-Aug-30, 18:19:48
RE: [OBG] Nature of Race Full - by Chuck - 2015-Aug-30, 20:04:25
RE: [OBG] Nature of Race Full - by Krom - 2015-Aug-31, 13:47:19
RE: [OBG] Nature of Race Full - by Chuck - 2015-Aug-31, 19:04:52
RE: [OBG] Nature of Race Full - by Krom - 2015-Sep-01, 00:42:22
RE: [OBG] Nature of Race Full - by Chuck - 2015-Sep-01, 18:28:46
RE: [OBG] Nature of Race Full - by Chuck - 2015-Aug-31, 20:53:48
RE: [OBG] Nature of Race Full - by Chuck - 2015-Aug-31, 22:18:55
RE: [OBG] Nature of Race Full - by Krom - 2015-Aug-31, 19:15:58
RE: [OBG] Nature of Race Full - by Chuck - 2015-Aug-31, 19:21:59
RE: [OBG] Nature of Race Full - by Chuck - 2015-Aug-31, 19:39:33
RE: [OBG] Nature of Race Full - by Chuck - 2015-Aug-31, 20:24:58
RE: [OBG] Nature of Race Full - by Krom - 2015-Aug-31, 23:30:23
RE: [OBG] Nature of Race Full - by Krom - 2015-Sep-01, 00:24:17
RE: [OBG] Nature of Race Full - by Krom - 2015-Sep-01, 16:37:55
RE: [OBG] Nature of Race Full - by Chuck - 2015-Sep-01, 19:15:17
RE: [OBG] Nature of Race Full - by Krom - 2015-Sep-07, 00:45:05
RE: [OBG] Nature of Race Full - by Krom - 2015-Sep-07, 00:54:23
RE: [OBG] Nature of Race Full - by Emil - 2015-Sep-07, 03:44:27
RE: [OBG] Nature of Race Full - by Krom - 2015-Sep-08, 04:53:44
RE: [OBG] Nature of Race Full - by Chuck - 2015-Sep-09, 19:20:13
RE: [OBG] Nature of Race Full - by Krom - 2015-Sep-07, 00:58:47
RE: [OBG] Nature of Race Full - by Chuck - 2015-Sep-08, 00:34:45
RE: [OBG] Nature of Race Full - by Krom - 2015-Sep-07, 01:02:11
RE: [OBG] Nature of Race Full - by Krom - 2015-Sep-07, 01:04:36
RE: [OBG] Nature of Race Full - by Krom - 2015-Sep-08, 04:13:42
RE: [OBG] Nature of Race Full - by Chuck - 2015-Sep-09, 04:29:01
RE: [OBG] Nature of Race Full - by Krom - 2015-Sep-08, 04:28:46
RE: [OBG] Nature of Race Full - by Chuck - 2015-Sep-09, 05:15:14
RE: [OBG] Nature of Race Full - by Krom - 2015-Sep-08, 13:28:18
RE: [OBG] Nature of Race Full - by Krom - 2015-Sep-08, 13:44:55
RE: [OBG] Nature of Race Full - by Krom - 2015-Sep-09, 04:40:50
RE: [OBG] Nature of Race Full - by Chuck - 2015-Sep-09, 05:46:38
RE: [OBG] Nature of Race Full - by Chuck - 2015-Sep-09, 18:15:32
RE: [OBG] Nature of Race Full - by Krom - 2015-Sep-09, 05:27:14
RE: [OBG] Nature of Race Full - by Chuck - 2015-Sep-09, 06:21:26
RE: [OBG] Nature of Race Full - by Krom - 2015-Sep-09, 20:52:04
RE: [OBG] Nature of Race Full - by Chuck - 2015-Sep-09, 22:37:50
RE: [OBG] Nature of Race Full - by Chuck - 2015-Sep-09, 23:36:59
RE: [OBG] Nature of Race Full - by Krom - 2015-Sep-10, 00:43:47
RE: [OBG] Nature of Race Full - by Chuck - 2015-Sep-10, 00:58:25
RE: [OBG] Nature of Race Full - by Chuck - 2015-Sep-10, 01:22:48
RE: [OBG] Nature of Race Full - by Chuck - 2015-Sep-10, 03:33:57
RE: [OBG] Nature of Race Full - by Krom - 2015-Sep-10, 01:42:59
RE: [OBG] Nature of Race Full - by Chuck - 2015-Sep-10, 03:07:49
RE: [OBG] Nature of Race Full - by Chuck - 2015-Sep-10, 03:55:57
RE: [OBG] Nature of Race Full - by Krom - 2015-Sep-10, 04:36:06
RE: [OBG] Nature of Race Full - by Chuck - 2015-Sep-10, 06:27:34
RE: [OBG] Nature of Race Full - by Krom - 2015-Sep-10, 09:21:20
RE: [OBG] Nature of Race Full - by Chuck - 2015-Sep-11, 05:03:18
RE: [OBG] Nature of Race Full - by Krom - 2015-Sep-10, 17:38:21
RE: [OBG] Nature of Race Full - by Chuck - 2015-Sep-11, 01:55:34
RE: [OBG] Nature of Race Full - by Krom - 2015-Sep-10, 18:33:31
RE: [OBG] Nature of Race Full - by Chuck - 2015-Sep-11, 05:27:39
RE: [OBG] Nature of Race Full - by Krom - 2015-Sep-11, 23:46:42
RE: [OBG] Nature of Race Full - by Krom - 2015-Sep-10, 18:48:03
RE: [OBG] Nature of Race Full - by Chuck - 2015-Sep-11, 06:48:48
RE: [OBG] Nature of Race Full - by Krom - 2015-Sep-11, 22:38:06
RE: [OBG] Nature of Race Full - by Krom - 2015-Sep-11, 22:39:16
RE: [OBG] Nature of Race Full - by Krom - 2015-Sep-11, 22:59:31
RE: [OBG] Nature of Race Full - by Krom - 2015-Sep-11, 23:07:35
RE: [OBG] Nature of Race Full - by Krom - 2015-Sep-11, 23:53:26
RE: [OBG] Nature of Race Full - by Krom - 2015-Sep-12, 00:04:04
RE: [OBG] Nature of Race Full - by Chuck - 2015-Sep-13, 06:40:18
RE: [OBG] Nature of Race Full - by General-Factor analyst - 2016-Jan-21, 02:57:26
RE: [OBG] Nature of Race Full - by Chuck - 2016-Jan-21, 03:21:15
RE: [OBG] Nature of Race Full - by Duxide - 2016-Jan-23, 19:14:09
RE: [OBG] Nature of Race Full - by General-Factor analyst - 2016-Jan-23, 21:07:04
RE: [OBG] Nature of Race Full - by Chuck - 2016-Jan-23, 21:30:14
RE: [OBG] Nature of Race Full - by General-Factor analyst - 2016-Feb-11, 01:35:21
RE: [OBG] Nature of Race Full - by General-Factor analyst - 2016-Feb-11, 02:33:20
RE: [OBG] Nature of Race Full - by Chuck - 2016-Feb-11, 06:45:54
RE: [OBG] Nature of Race Full - by General-Factor analyst - 2016-Feb-11, 07:37:46
RE: [OBG] Nature of Race Full - by Emil - 2016-Feb-11, 09:29:40
[OBG] Nature of Race part 1 & 2 - by Chuck - 2014-Dec-27, 02:48:10
[OBG] Nature of Race part 4 - by Chuck - 2014-Dec-30, 23:58:10
RE: Nature of Race part 4 - by Peter Frost - 2014-Dec-31, 18:11:25
RE: Nature of Race part 4 - by Chuck - 2015-Jan-01, 00:20:51
RE: Nature of Race part 4 - by Chuck - 2015-Jan-01, 15:37:35
RE: Nature of Race part 4 - by Peter Frost - 2015-Jan-01, 23:36:17
RE: Nature of Race part 2 - by Chuck - 2015-Jan-04, 07:01:40
RE: Nature of Race part 1 - by Emil - 2015-Jan-04, 07:27:12
RE: Nature of Race part 1 - by Meng Hu - 2015-Jan-05, 18:57:40
RE: Nature of Race part 1 - by Chuck - 2015-Jan-08, 00:15:45
RE: Nature of Race part 1 - by Meng Hu - 2015-Jan-09, 01:16:53
[OBG] Nature of Race, part 3 - by Chuck - 2015-Jan-09, 23:33:46
RE: Nature of Race, part 3 - by Peter Frost - 2015-Jan-11, 04:16:31
RE: Nature of Race part 4 - by Chuck - 2015-Jan-11, 05:19:49
RE: Nature of Race, part 3 - by Chuck - 2015-Jan-11, 05:51:03
RE: Nature of Race, part 3 - by Peter Frost - 2015-Jan-11, 18:15:29
RE: Nature of Race part 4 - by Peter Frost - 2015-Jan-11, 18:39:54
RE: Nature of Race part 4 - by Chuck - 2015-Jan-11, 21:13:22
RE: Nature of Race, part 3 - by Chuck - 2015-Jan-11, 23:47:15
RE: Nature of Race, part 3 - by Chuck - 2015-Jan-12, 00:17:13
RE: Nature of Race part 4 - by Emil - 2015-Jan-12, 03:56:59
RE: Nature of Race part 4 - by Peter Frost - 2015-Jan-12, 06:47:22
RE: Nature of Race part 4 - by Emil - 2015-Jan-12, 18:31:23
RE: Nature of Race part 4 - by Duxide - 2015-Jan-12, 18:44:54
RE: Nature of Race part 4 - by Chuck - 2015-Jan-12, 21:51:03
RE: Nature of Race part 4 - by Chuck - 2015-Jan-12, 22:08:59
[OBG] Nature of Race part 5 - by Chuck - 2015-Jan-14, 04:25:25
RE: Nature of Race part 4 - by Duxide - 2015-Jan-14, 10:35:21
RE: Nature of Race part 4 - by Chuck - 2015-Jan-16, 21:34:48
RE: Nature of Race part 4 - by Peter Frost - 2015-Jan-17, 21:50:13
RE: Nature of Race part 4 - by Chuck - 2015-Jan-18, 02:46:31
RE: Nature of Race, part 3 - by Meng Hu - 2015-Jan-18, 04:59:02
RE: Nature of Race part 2 - by Meng Hu - 2015-Jan-18, 06:00:51
RE: Nature of Race part 4 - by Peter Frost - 2015-Jan-19, 03:19:58
RE: Nature of Race part 4 - by Chuck - 2015-Jan-19, 21:02:17
RE: Nature of Race part 4 - by Peter Frost - 2015-Jan-20, 18:45:25
RE: Nature of Race part 2 - by Chuck - 2015-Jan-21, 02:21:31
RE: Nature of Race part 4 - by Chuck - 2015-Jan-21, 02:59:27
RE: Nature of Race part 4 - by Chuck - 2015-Jan-21, 03:00:44
RE: Nature of Race part 4 - by Duxide - 2015-Jan-21, 11:00:51
RE: Nature of Race, part 3 - by Chuck - 2015-Jan-22, 00:06:32
RE: Nature of Race, part 3 - by Meng Hu - 2015-Jan-22, 03:26:56
RE: Nature of Race part 4 - by Chuck - 2015-Jan-22, 06:12:47
Some comments - by Emil - 2015-Jan-23, 21:01:32
RE: Nature of Race part 4 - by Peter Frost - 2015-Jan-24, 02:03:48
RE: Nature of Race, part 3 - by Chuck - 2015-Jan-24, 06:57:50
Comments on version 3 - by Emil - 2015-Jan-24, 07:34:24
RE: Nature of Race part 4 - by Meng Hu - 2015-Jan-25, 05:19:51
RE: Nature of Race part 1 - by Chuck - 2015-Jan-25, 07:14:06
RE: Nature of Race part 2 - by Chuck - 2015-Jan-26, 02:29:36
RE: Nature of Race part 4 - by Chuck - 2015-Jan-26, 06:12:38
RE: Nature of Race, part 3 - by Meng Hu - 2015-Jan-28, 04:42:41
RE: Nature of Race, part 3 - by Chuck - 2015-Jan-30, 04:47:18
RE: Nature of Race part 1 - by Dalliard - 2015-Feb-04, 16:44:13
RE: [OBG] Nature of Race part 1 - by Chuck - 2015-Feb-12, 01:16:14
[OBG] Nature of Race part 6 - by Chuck - 2015-Mar-05, 22:39:52
RE: [OBG] Nature of Race part 6 - by Emil - 2015-Mar-06, 01:33:45
RE: [OBG] Nature of Race part 6 - by Chuck - 2015-Mar-06, 01:36:16
RE: [OBG] Nature of Race part 6 - by Emil - 2015-Mar-06, 04:23:24
RE: [OBG] Nature of Race part 6 - by Chuck - 2015-Mar-06, 22:05:46
RE: [OBG] Nature of Race part 6 - by Emil - 2015-Mar-06, 23:43:06
RE: [OBG] Nature of Race part 6 - by Chuck - 2015-Mar-06, 23:59:47
RE: [OBG] Nature of Race part 4 - by Meng Hu - 2015-Mar-07, 00:16:16
RE: [OBG] Nature of Race part 6 - by Emil - 2015-Mar-07, 03:00:17
RE: [OBG] Nature of Race part 4 - by Chuck - 2015-Mar-07, 22:28:41
RE: [OBG] Nature of Race part 4 - by Meng Hu - 2015-Mar-08, 03:25:20
RE: [OBG] Nature of Race part 4 - by Chuck - 2015-Mar-08, 05:51:23
RE: [OBG] Nature of Race part 5 - by Emil - 2015-Mar-09, 03:27:19
RE: [OBG] Nature of Race part 5 - by Chuck - 2015-Mar-09, 05:09:23
Nature of Race Full Version - by Chuck - 2015-Mar-13, 23:03:56
RE: Nature of Race Full Version - by B.B. - 2015-Mar-19, 14:00:41
RE: Nature of Race Full Version - by Chuck - 2015-Mar-19, 17:21:11
RE: Nature of Race Full Version - by B.B. - 2015-Mar-20, 13:13:56
RE: Nature of Race Full Version - by Emil - 2015-Mar-19, 19:19:17
RE: Nature of Race Full Version - by Chuck - 2015-Mar-19, 19:27:20
RE: Nature of Race Full Version - by Peter Frost - 2015-Mar-20, 05:18:27
RE: Nature of Race Full Version - by Meng Hu - 2015-Mar-20, 15:45:47
RE: Nature of Race Full Version - by Chuck - 2015-Mar-21, 17:51:14
RE: Nature of Race Full Version - by Chuck - 2015-Mar-24, 00:11:29
RE: Nature of Race Full Version - by Meng Hu - 2015-Mar-28, 21:00:38
RE: Nature of Race Full Version - by Chuck - 2015-Mar-29, 16:27:50
RE: Nature of Race Full Version - by Emil - 2015-Mar-20, 21:26:44
RE: Nature of Race Full Version - by Peter Frost - 2015-Mar-21, 20:50:39
RE: Nature of Race Full Version - by Chuck - 2015-Mar-21, 21:49:27
RE: Nature of Race Full Version - by Peter Frost - 2015-Mar-21, 22:32:28
RE: Nature of Race Full Version - by Chuck - 2015-Mar-23, 02:14:31
RE: Nature of Race Full Version - by Peter Frost - 2015-Mar-24, 22:31:05
RE: Nature of Race Full Version - by Chuck - 2015-Mar-25, 01:03:09
RE: Nature of Race Full Version - by Peter Frost - 2015-Mar-25, 03:05:50
RE: Nature of Race Full Version - by Chuck - 2015-Mar-25, 03:20:05
RE: Nature of Race Full Version - by Emil - 2015-Mar-25, 16:20:10
RE: Nature of Race Full Version - by Chuck - 2015-Mar-27, 22:49:39
RE: Nature of Race Full Version - by Chuck - 2015-Mar-27, 22:55:52
RE: Nature of Race Full Version - by Emil - 2015-Mar-29, 19:42:54
RE: Nature of Race Full Version - by Chuck - 2015-Mar-30, 03:54:53
RE: Nature of Race Full Version - by Chuck - 2015-Mar-30, 21:27:12
RE: Nature of Race Full Version - by Emil - 2015-Mar-30, 22:04:02
RE: Nature of Race Full Version - by Peter Frost - 2015-Mar-31, 05:18:56
RE: Nature of Race Full Version - by Chuck - 2015-Mar-31, 20:30:42
RE: Nature of Race Full Version - by Peter Frost - 2015-Apr-01, 00:11:29
RE: Nature of Race Full Version - by Chuck - 2015-Apr-01, 01:52:41
RE: Nature of Race Full Version - by Peter Frost - 2015-Apr-01, 18:10:07
RE: Nature of Race Full Version - by Chuck - 2015-Apr-01, 19:59:55
RE: Nature of Race Full Version - by Peter Frost - 2015-Apr-02, 19:14:39
RE: Nature of Race Full Version - by Chuck - 2015-Apr-02, 20:58:27
RE: [OBG] Nature of Race part 1 - by Peter Frost - 2015-Mar-13, 23:06:45
RE: [OBG] Nature of Race part 1 - by Chuck - 2015-Mar-13, 23:12:43
RE: [OBG] Nature of Race part 5 - by Meng Hu - 2015-Mar-16, 04:19:57
RE: [OBG] Nature of Race part 5 - by Chuck - 2015-Mar-17, 00:07:49
RE: [OBG] Nature of Race part 5 - by Chuck - 2015-Mar-17, 02:01:50
RE: [OBG] Nature of Race part 5 - by Meng Hu - 2015-Mar-20, 14:31:07
RE: [OBG] Nature of Race part 5 - by Meng Hu - 2015-Mar-20, 19:21:44
RE: [OBG] Nature of Race part 5 - by Emil - 2015-Mar-20, 20:49:14
RE: [OBG] Nature of Race part 5 - by Meng Hu - 2015-Mar-28, 20:28:56
RE: [OBG] Nature of Race part 5 - by Chuck - 2015-Mar-29, 15:38:20
RE: [OBG] Nature of Race, part 3 - by Meng Hu - 2015-Apr-03, 03:22:30
RE: [OBG] Nature of Race part 2 - by Meng Hu - 2015-Apr-03, 04:19:12
RE: [OBG] Nature of Race, part 3 - by Chuck - 2015-Apr-03, 06:28:02
RE: [OBG] Nature of Race part 2 - by Chuck - 2015-Apr-03, 18:29:11
RE: [OBG] Nature of Race part 2 - by Chuck - 2015-Apr-03, 18:33:02
RE: [OBG] Nature of Race, part 3 - by Meng Hu - 2015-Apr-04, 01:09:17
RE: [OBG] Nature of Race part 2 - by Chuck - 2015-Apr-04, 01:14:15
RE: [OBG] Nature of Race part 1 - by Meng Hu - 2015-Apr-04, 01:59:22
RE: [OBG] Nature of Race part 2 - by Meng Hu - 2015-Apr-04, 02:32:37
RE: [OBG] Nature of Race part 2 - by Chuck - 2015-Apr-04, 04:04:17
RE: [OBG] Nature of Race part 2 - by Chuck - 2015-Apr-04, 04:35:17
RE: [OBG] Nature of Race part 1 - by Chuck - 2015-Apr-04, 23:26:01
RE: [OBG] Nature of Race part 2 - by Meng Hu - 2015-Apr-06, 02:02:50
RE: [OBG] Nature of Race part 5 - by Meng Hu - 2015-Apr-06, 03:39:43
RE: [OBG] Nature of Race part 2 - by Chuck - 2015-Apr-06, 20:07:05
RE: [OBG] Nature of Race part 5 - by Chuck - 2015-Apr-06, 21:32:08
RE: [OBG] Nature of Race Full - by Meng Hu - 2015-Apr-10, 01:36:38
RE: [OBG] Nature of Race Full - by Chuck - 2015-Apr-10, 05:56:50
RE: [OBG] Nature of Race Full - by Chuck - 2015-Apr-10, 06:27:06
RE: [OBG] Nature of Race Full - by Meng Hu - 2015-Apr-11, 00:28:43
RE: [OBG] Nature of Race Full - by Chuck - 2015-Apr-11, 01:11:50
RE: [OBG] Nature of Race Full - by Meng Hu - 2015-Apr-13, 02:55:44
RE: [OBG] Nature of Race Full - by Chuck - 2015-Apr-13, 07:08:01
RE: [OBG] Nature of Race Full - by Chuck - 2015-Apr-13, 21:41:27
RE: [OBG] Nature of Race Full - by Chuck - 2015-Apr-14, 01:50:31
 
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