Hello There, Guest!  

[OBG] Nature of Race Full

#20
(2015-Jan-11, 18:15:29)Peter Frost Wrote: Peter Frost:I guess this is where you and I fundamentally disagree. (1) Genotypic similarity and phenotypic similarity are weakly concordant. It might be better if you replaced "on the level of the individual" with "Among individuals subject to the same selection pressures." (2) Differences in the degree of shared ancestry are not the main reason why individuals or populations differ from each other in anatomy, behavior, and other adaptive characteristics. Such differences are simply an enabling factor. (3) Two reproductively isolated populations can go on looking and behaving similarly for millions of years if they are subject to the same selection pressures. Conversely, if the selection pressures are very different, those two populations will diverge radically from each other.


I took the liberty of labeling what I see as your key points. We absolutely agree on point (2), in a sense. In section I, I touched upon this issue, though perhaps not clearly enough for you, and provided the examples of reptiles, birds, and crocodiles. That is, we agree that crocodiles are more phenotypically related to reptiles e.g., snakes, despite sharing a more recent ancestor with birds. What this means, effectively, is that the lines of a pedigree did not survive at random. As a results some e.g., Archosauria are much more phenotypically related to reptiles than are others, and so might be grouped with them. Now, regarding point (1), I was under the impression (following Mayr and others) that genotype tracked this modification (i.e., non-random pedigree survival), thus if we were to groups by whole genomic similarity we would end up putting reptiles with crocodiles and not birds. If not, then Mayr's evolutionary taxonomy has a deep theoretical problem, since it claims (see discussion in section I) to be genotypic similarity based and, also, claims to e.g., groups crocodiles with reptiles. Note that this, the correlation between phenotype, genotype, and "phylogeny" (in the sense of most recent common ancestor) is a purely technical/factual issue. Let me know what you think and if we still disagree I will have to look into the matter more.

This leaves (3, and 2 in some senses). I think that this is more of a semantic/language disagreement, though, than a fundamental conceptual one. What I am trying to communicate is that: (a) the individual crocodiles are crocodiles purely for genealogical reasons in the sense that this relative similarity is completely explained by the crocodiles' recent parentage (i.e., individuals don't experience modification, they don't evolve); in context to races, when assigning Peter Frost to one, one only need to know his personal genealogy, not the environmental adversities he experience ND (b) there is a sense of "genealogy" in which one can say that populations are taxonomically organized in a purely genealogical fashion and this is similar to the retrospective sense of (a). Thus:

Darwin: "I believe that the arrangement of the groups within each class, in due subordination and relation to the other groups, must be strictly genealogical; but that the amount of difference in the several branches or groups, though allied in the same degree in blood to their common progenitor, may differ greatly, being due to the different degrees of modification which they have undergone; and this is expressed by the forms being ranked under different genera, families, sections, or orders."

See also: Mayr and Bock (2002): "The study of phylogeny has been traditionally considered to be, so to speak, a backward looking endeavour, the search for and study of common ancestors. The starting point in such an analysis is a particular taxon and the student of phylogeny attempts to infer the ancestors of this taxon. If all the species of a tentatively delimited taxon are the descendants of the nearest common ancestor, the taxon following Haeckel (1866) is called monophyletic (Mayr 1969, Mayr and Ashlock, 1991 pp. 253–255). Hennig (1950) [the key founder of cladism] introduced an entirely different concept. The study of phylogeny was for him a forward (to the future) looking process; its starting point was a stem (mother) species ....Genealogical branching alone is not sufficient for the construction of a sound classification of living organisms. Darwin (1859, p. 420) said rightly, ‘… but that the amount of difference in the several branches or groups, though allied in the same degree in blood to their common progenitor [at branching points], may differ greatly … and this is expressed by the forms being ranked under different genera, families, sections, or orders.’ A sound Darwinian classification, therefore, must be based on a balanced consideration of both genealogical branching (cladogenesis) and similarity (amount of phyletic evolutionary change = anagenesis)."

A distinction is made between (a) (retrospective) requiring that all valid taxa, at a lower level, descend from a common one at a higher level, and (b) (prospective, or branching based) requiring that all valid taxa at a higher level include all taxon that descended from it. Both (a) and (b) are, in a sense, strictly genealogical.

I noted this in the paper, saying: The evolutionary taxonomist attempts to group by genotypic affinity. Since genetic affinity is conditioned by phylogenic affinity, retrospectively understood, evolutionary classifications are genealogical ones, to use Darwin's phrase, in arrangement. They are genealogical in that they are not, to use modern terminology, polyphyletic. Cladists group by genealogical relatedness alone and are uninterested in overall genotypic relatedness. The picture below illustrates a situation in which the disagreement between the schools emerges:

Generally, I'm not sure that (regarding a) I shouldn't note that genealogy ~ genotype (~ phenotype) on the (necessarily retrospective) individual level -- or do you think that, on this level, relying on overall genealogy versus genotype versus phenotype similarity will result in discordant results? -- and (regarding b) that I can't discuss racial classifications as being genealogical units in a retrospective sense.

Let me know what we disagree with here. Perhaps I need to rewrite some sections for clarity.

Peter Frost:
Quote:(4) I realize that much, if not most, of your book is a historical review of thinking on race. But most of what people wrote before Darwin was, frankly, clueless. And this cluelessness has persisted since Darwin's time. (5) Another point. If you wish to provide an exhaustive historical review, why do you ignore some of the really nutty (though popular) explanations? For instance, there's the Curse of Ham (as elaborI took the liberty of labeling what I see as your key points. ated in the Talmud)..(6) Then there's the notion of degeneration from an ideal type. This was Blumenbach's thinking. I could go on, but do you see my point?

Again, I took the liberty of labeling key points. As for (4), the overall dissertation is not intended to be a historical review but rather a philosophical discussion of the biological "race concept". Section 3 provides some historically review in attempt to explain that the concept of race as introduced into natural history was not "really nutty" and that is was surprisingly similar, at least compared to the past species concept, to the one we currently have. As for (5), I did, in fact, make reference to such concepts:

(Section 2) "Prior to being incorporated into natural history and anthropology in the 18th century, the term race referred to breeds and lineages. The idea of race was employed, in a related manner, in several different discourses. It was used in context to domestic breeding to describe strains of animals produced through intercrossing; it described the lineages of noble families (e.g., noblesse de race); in theological context, it was employed to explain the transmission of original sin; all men were said to inherit the original sin of Adam due to being of his race or lineage; also, different lineages of Adam, dispersed across the world, were also said to represent different races e.g., the race of Sem (Doron, 2012). This concept of race as breeds and lineages was integrated into biology and anthropology, largely by Comte de Buffon and Immanuel Kant, to make sense of a particular sort of intraspecific variation".

They were not "natural history" ones though, yet they were lineage based ones, and so at least demonstrate an understanding of the "genetic" (qua genealogical/generational) basis of differences. As for (6), Blumenbach's was a natural history one but it was originally a linnaean varieties, not race per se, concept. I discussed these [varieties concepts], extensively:
e.g.,

"...As Stamos (2006) notes: "Linnaeus believed in the so-called law-of-reversion, the belief that species can vary within certain "fixed limits" and that when the conditions that caused them to vary are removed, "true species" as he put it in Critica Botanica, will "Finally revert to the original forms" (Ramsbottom 1938, 200n)". Of course, Buffon, though not Kant, also believed that constant varieties (races), were not permanent; according to him, for example, if Black Africans were transplanted to the north after eight to twelve generations, their skin would lighten . Nonetheless, the varieties of Linnaeus, were generally seen as significantly more variable and more subject to change with shifting external conditions."

That said, I don't think that this is a crazy idea at all. It makes perfect sense when you are willing to give the idea a charitable reading. "Degeneration" form an "ideal type" was just environmentally induced divergence from an adaptive norm. Surely, we agree that this happens in context to e.g., "fat and thin, straight and bowed, leprosic and lame people (Linnaeus, 1737). I don't think that these ideas were implausible at all, though we would have to discuss specific ones.
 Reply
 
Messages In This Thread
[OBG] Nature of Race Full - by Chuck - 2014-Dec-25, 21:33:36
MERGE - by Emil - 2015-Apr-08, 16:15:44
RE: [OBG] Nature of Race Full Version [merged] - by Chuck - 2015-Apr-08, 18:51:44
RE: [OBG] Nature of Race Full - by Chuck - 2015-Apr-08, 18:58:05
RE: [OBG] Nature of Race Full - by Emil - 2015-Apr-11, 02:04:42
RE: [OBG] Nature of Race Full - by Chuck - 2015-Apr-11, 04:49:13
RE: [OBG] Nature of Race Full - by Emil - 2015-Apr-11, 16:19:20
RE: [OBG] Nature of Race Full - by Chuck - 2015-Apr-12, 23:00:17
RE: [OBG] Nature of Race Full - by Meng Hu - 2015-Apr-15, 00:59:14
RE: [OBG] Nature of Race Full - by Chuck - 2015-Apr-16, 18:34:45
RE: [OBG] Nature of Race Full - by Chuck - 2015-Apr-19, 00:55:36
RE: [OBG] Nature of Race Full - by Chuck - 2015-May-01, 04:37:45
RE: [OBG] Nature of Race Full - by Chuck - 2015-May-04, 20:55:12
RE: [OBG] Nature of Race Full - by Krom - 2015-Apr-16, 19:52:02
RE: [OBG] Nature of Race Full - by Chuck - 2015-Apr-16, 21:53:26
RE: [OBG] Nature of Race Full - by Krom - 2015-Apr-16, 23:16:17
RE: [OBG] Nature of Race Full - by Chuck - 2015-Apr-17, 01:21:26
RE: [OBG] Nature of Race Full - by Chuck - 2015-Apr-17, 02:12:18
RE: [OBG] Nature of Race Full - by Krom - 2015-Apr-17, 05:33:25
RE: [OBG] Nature of Race Full - by Chuck - 2015-Apr-17, 11:03:04
RE: [OBG] Nature of Race Full - by Chuck - 2015-Apr-17, 18:27:27
RE: [OBG] Nature of Race Full - by Krom - 2015-Apr-17, 21:22:57
RE: [OBG] Nature of Race Full - by Chuck - 2015-Apr-17, 23:14:06
RE: [OBG] Nature of Race Full - by Krom - 2015-Apr-17, 19:54:09
RE: [OBG] Nature of Race Full - by Krom - 2015-Apr-18, 05:23:19
RE: [OBG] Nature of Race Full - by Chuck - 2015-Apr-18, 21:54:55
RE: [OBG] Nature of Race Full - by Krom - 2015-Apr-20, 19:56:33
RE: [OBG] Nature of Race Full - by Chuck - 2015-Apr-20, 20:48:01
RE: [OBG] Nature of Race Full - by Chuck - 2015-Apr-20, 20:54:17
RE: [OBG] Nature of Race Full - by Krom - 2015-Apr-28, 22:35:42
RE: [OBG] Nature of Race Full - by Chuck - 2015-Apr-28, 23:40:08
RE: [OBG] Nature of Race Full - by Krom - 2015-Apr-30, 00:41:29
RE: [OBG] Nature of Race Full - by Chuck - 2015-Apr-30, 01:09:46
RE: [OBG] Nature of Race Full - by Krom - 2015-Apr-30, 00:59:36
RE: [OBG] Nature of Race Full - by Krom - 2015-Apr-28, 22:43:17
RE: [OBG] Nature of Race Full - by Chuck - 2015-Apr-29, 00:02:52
RE: [OBG] Nature of Race Full - by Krom - 2015-May-01, 00:12:32
RE: [OBG] Nature of Race Full - by Chuck - 2015-May-01, 03:26:58
RE: [OBG] Nature of Race Full - by Emil - 2015-May-01, 03:48:15
RE: [OBG] Nature of Race Full - by Chuck - 2015-May-01, 05:10:05
RE: [OBG] Nature of Race Full - by Duxide - 2015-May-04, 19:58:20
RE: [OBG] Nature of Race Full - by Chuck - 2015-May-05, 04:40:56
RE: [OBG] Nature of Race Full - by Emil - 2015-May-05, 17:53:59
RE: [OBG] Nature of Race Full - by Chuck - 2015-May-05, 17:58:11
RE: [OBG] Nature of Race Full - by Emil - 2015-May-05, 19:44:32
RE: [OBG] Nature of Race Full - by Peter Frost - 2015-May-05, 20:15:03
RE: [OBG] Nature of Race Full - by Chuck - 2015-May-05, 22:19:30
RE: [OBG] Nature of Race Full - by Duxide - 2015-May-06, 10:15:17
RE: [OBG] Nature of Race Full - by Chuck - 2015-May-07, 03:35:54
RE: [OBG] Nature of Race Full - by Duxide - 2015-May-07, 11:27:55
RE: [OBG] Nature of Race Full - by Chuck - 2015-May-08, 01:13:58
RE: [OBG] Nature of Race Full - by Duxide - 2015-May-08, 10:24:42
RE: [OBG] Nature of Race Full - by Chuck - 2015-May-08, 12:05:15
RE: [OBG] Nature of Race Full - by Duxide - 2015-May-08, 12:28:44
RE: [OBG] Nature of Race Full - by Chuck - 2015-May-25, 00:29:25
RE: [OBG] Nature of Race Full - by Chuck - 2015-May-25, 00:59:36
RE: [OBG] Nature of Race Full - by Duxide - 2015-Jun-01, 15:56:30
RE: [OBG] Nature of Race Full - by Peter Frost - 2015-May-06, 18:41:23
RE: [OBG] Nature of Race Full - by Chuck - 2015-May-07, 03:12:22
RE: [OBG] Nature of Race Full - by Emil - 2015-May-07, 08:24:39
RE: [OBG] Nature of Race Full - by Duxide - 2015-May-31, 09:57:34
RE: [OBG] Nature of Race Full - by Chuck - 2015-May-31, 19:04:56
RE: [OBG] Nature of Race Full - by Chuck - 2015-Jun-02, 23:09:46
RE: [OBG] Nature of Race Full - by Meng Hu - 2015-Jun-01, 07:48:29
RE: [OBG] Nature of Race Full - by Chuck - 2015-Jun-01, 13:16:31
RE: [OBG] Nature of Race Full - by Chuck - 2015-Jun-02, 03:15:41
RE: [OBG] Nature of Race Full - by Emil - 2015-Jun-01, 16:21:27
RE: [OBG] Nature of Race Full - by Chuck - 2015-Jun-02, 00:00:10
RE: [OBG] Nature of Race Full - by Duxide - 2015-Jun-02, 11:28:25
RE: [OBG] Nature of Race Full - by Emil - 2015-Jun-02, 01:14:55
RE: [OBG] Nature of Race Full - by Meng Hu - 2015-Jun-05, 09:23:18
RE: [OBG] Nature of Race Full - by Duxide - 2015-Jun-05, 09:40:03
RE: [OBG] Nature of Race Full - by Duxide - 2015-Jun-16, 22:46:04
RE: [OBG] Nature of Race Full - by Chuck - 2015-Jun-17, 03:53:12
RE: [OBG] Nature of Race Full - by Duxide - 2015-Jun-17, 09:24:01
RE: [OBG] Nature of Race Full - by Chuck - 2015-Jun-17, 13:37:10
RE: [OBG] Nature of Race Full - by Duxide - 2015-Jun-17, 13:45:53
RE: [OBG] Nature of Race Full - by Chuck - 2015-Jun-17, 13:54:27
RE: [OBG] Nature of Race Full - by Duxide - 2015-Jun-17, 13:56:49
RE: [OBG] Nature of Race Full - by Chuck - 2015-Jun-17, 16:25:12
RE: [OBG] Nature of Race Full - by Chuck - 2015-Jun-18, 04:45:00
RE: [OBG] Nature of Race Full - by Krom - 2015-Jul-03, 20:17:56
RE: [OBG] Nature of Race Full - by Chuck - 2015-Jul-03, 20:44:49
RE: [OBG] Nature of Race Full - by Chuck - 2015-Jul-03, 20:52:02
RE: [OBG] Nature of Race Full - by Krom - 2015-Jul-03, 23:26:48
RE: [OBG] Nature of Race Full - by Chuck - 2015-Jul-04, 01:09:26
RE: [OBG] Nature of Race Full - by Krom - 2015-Jul-04, 06:18:04
RE: [OBG] Nature of Race Full - by Chuck - 2015-Jul-04, 07:43:21
RE: [OBG] Nature of Race Full - by Krom - 2015-Jul-04, 17:48:48
RE: [OBG] Nature of Race Full - by Chuck - 2015-Jul-05, 03:47:08
RE: [OBG] Nature of Race Full - by Krom - 2015-Jul-08, 00:28:49
RE: [OBG] Nature of Race Full - by Chuck - 2015-Jul-08, 01:58:26
RE: [OBG] Nature of Race Full - by Chuck - 2015-Jul-04, 01:13:03
RE: [OBG] Nature of Race Full - by Chuck - 2015-Jul-04, 02:51:50
RE: [OBG] Nature of Race Full - by Krom - 2015-Jul-04, 05:07:16
RE: [OBG] Nature of Race Full - by Chuck - 2015-Jul-04, 09:25:48
RE: [OBG] Nature of Race Full - by Chuck - 2015-Jul-04, 09:34:02
RE: [OBG] Nature of Race Full - by Krom - 2015-Jul-04, 06:28:04
RE: [OBG] Nature of Race Full - by Chuck - 2015-Jul-04, 07:54:45
RE: [OBG] Nature of Race Full - by Emil - 2015-Jul-04, 15:02:47
RE: [OBG] Nature of Race Full - by Krom - 2015-Jul-04, 18:32:01
RE: [OBG] Nature of Race Full - by Chuck - 2015-Jul-05, 04:23:23
RE: [OBG] Nature of Race Full - by Krom - 2015-Jul-08, 01:07:59
RE: [OBG] Nature of Race Full - by Chuck - 2015-Jul-08, 02:22:31
RE: [OBG] Nature of Race Full - by Krom - 2015-Jul-05, 03:34:22
RE: [OBG] Nature of Race Full - by Chuck - 2015-Jul-06, 08:33:26
RE: [OBG] Nature of Race Full - by Krom - 2015-Jul-08, 23:42:19
RE: [OBG] Nature of Race Full - by Chuck - 2015-Jul-09, 07:34:26
RE: [OBG] Nature of Race Full - by Krom - 2015-Jul-09, 22:08:22
RE: [OBG] Nature of Race Full - by Chuck - 2015-Jul-10, 06:52:42
RE: [OBG] Nature of Race Full - by Chuck - 2015-Jul-09, 10:04:03
RE: [OBG] Nature of Race Full - by Krom - 2015-Jul-10, 22:33:07
RE: [OBG] Nature of Race Full - by Chuck - 2015-Jul-12, 06:44:38
RE: [OBG] Nature of Race Full - by Chuck - 2015-Jul-16, 00:23:12
RE: [OBG] Nature of Race Full - by Krom - 2015-Jul-11, 03:30:25
RE: [OBG] Nature of Race Full - by Chuck - 2015-Jul-12, 07:12:54
RE: [OBG] Nature of Race Full - by Krom - 2015-Jul-19, 16:25:25
RE: [OBG] Nature of Race Full - by Chuck - 2015-Jul-19, 19:00:56
RE: [OBG] Nature of Race Full - by Chuck - 2015-Jul-19, 20:46:02
RE: [OBG] Nature of Race Full - by Krom - 2015-Jul-19, 16:45:01
RE: [OBG] Nature of Race Full - by Chuck - 2015-Jul-19, 19:09:21
RE: [OBG] Nature of Race Full - by Chuck - 2015-Jul-19, 19:44:39
RE: [OBG] Nature of Race Full - by Krom - 2015-Jul-19, 23:18:09
RE: [OBG] Nature of Race Full - by Chuck - 2015-Jul-20, 02:54:39
RE: [OBG] Nature of Race Full - by Krom - 2015-Jul-20, 21:19:51
RE: [OBG] Nature of Race Full - by Chuck - 2015-Jul-21, 00:47:58
RE: [OBG] Nature of Race Full - by Krom - 2015-Jul-22, 20:38:19
RE: [OBG] Nature of Race Full - by Chuck - 2015-Jul-22, 21:55:06
RE: [OBG] Nature of Race Full - by Krom - 2015-Jul-23, 06:03:13
RE: [OBG] Nature of Race Full - by Chuck - 2015-Jul-23, 07:27:54
RE: [OBG] Nature of Race Full - by Krom - 2015-Jul-19, 23:24:47
RE: [OBG] Nature of Race Full - by Krom - 2015-Jul-20, 19:51:10
RE: [OBG] Nature of Race Full - by Chuck - 2015-Jul-21, 04:59:19
RE: [OBG] Nature of Race Full - by Chuck - 2015-Jul-21, 05:26:57
RE: [OBG] Nature of Race Full - by Krom - 2015-Jul-20, 20:27:08
RE: [OBG] Nature of Race Full - by Chuck - 2015-Jul-21, 02:28:40
RE: [OBG] Nature of Race Full - by Emil - 2015-Jul-23, 04:19:50
RE: [OBG] Nature of Race Full - by Krom - 2015-Jul-23, 04:26:23
RE: [OBG] Nature of Race Full - by Chuck - 2015-Jul-23, 06:18:36
RE: [OBG] Nature of Race Full - by Zoidberg - 2015-Jul-23, 06:42:23
RE: [OBG] Nature of Race Full - by Chuck - 2015-Jul-23, 20:23:16
RE: [OBG] Nature of Race Full - by Krom - 2015-Jul-27, 00:01:36
RE: [OBG] Nature of Race Full - by Krom - 2015-Jul-27, 02:09:46
RE: [OBG] Nature of Race Full - by Chuck - 2015-Jul-27, 06:55:20
RE: [OBG] Nature of Race Full - by Krom - 2015-Jul-27, 17:56:05
RE: [OBG] Nature of Race Full - by Peter Frost - 2015-Jul-27, 23:14:46
RE: [OBG] Nature of Race Full - by Krom - 2015-Jul-28, 23:38:20
RE: [OBG] Nature of Race Full - by Chuck - 2015-Jul-28, 04:00:55
RE: [OBG] Nature of Race Full - by Krom - 2015-Jul-28, 22:01:51
RE: [OBG] Nature of Race Full - by Chuck - 2015-Jul-29, 02:58:26
RE: [OBG] Nature of Race Full - by Krom - 2015-Jul-28, 23:05:52
RE: [OBG] Nature of Race Full - by Krom - 2015-Jul-28, 23:26:34
RE: [OBG] Nature of Race Full - by Chuck - 2015-Jul-29, 07:49:04
RE: [OBG] Nature of Race Full - by Krom - 2015-Jul-29, 12:58:37
RE: [OBG] Nature of Race Full - by Chuck - 2015-Jul-29, 23:19:42
RE: [OBG] Nature of Race Full - by Peter Frost - 2015-Jul-30, 01:02:30
RE: [OBG] Nature of Race Full - by Krom - 2015-Jul-30, 04:35:03
RE: [OBG] Nature of Race Full - by Chuck - 2015-Jul-30, 05:46:57
RE: [OBG] Nature of Race Full - by Chuck - 2015-Jul-30, 18:37:39
RE: [OBG] Nature of Race Full - by Krom - 2015-Jul-29, 17:27:43
RE: [OBG] Nature of Race Full - by Chuck - 2015-Jul-29, 22:57:38
RE: [OBG] Nature of Race Full - by Krom - 2015-Jul-30, 04:15:21
RE: [OBG] Nature of Race Full - by Chuck - 2015-Jul-30, 04:36:23
RE: [OBG] Nature of Race Full - by Krom - 2015-Jul-30, 04:41:55
RE: [OBG] Nature of Race Full - by Chuck - 2015-Jul-30, 10:05:05
RE: [OBG] Nature of Race Full - by Krom - 2015-Jul-30, 04:57:07
RE: [OBG] Nature of Race Full - by Chuck - 2015-Jul-30, 09:45:14
RE: [OBG] Nature of Race Full - by Krom - 2015-Aug-28, 05:52:36
RE: [OBG] Nature of Race Full - by Krom - 2015-Aug-28, 05:58:14
RE: [OBG] Nature of Race Full - by Krom - 2015-Aug-28, 06:00:01
RE: [OBG] Nature of Race Full - by Krom - 2015-Aug-28, 06:08:11
RE: [OBG] Nature of Race Full - by Krom - 2015-Aug-28, 16:47:41
RE: [OBG] Nature of Race Full - by Chuck - 2015-Aug-28, 20:07:31
RE: [OBG] Nature of Race Full - by Krom - 2015-Aug-29, 02:27:26
RE: [OBG] Nature of Race Full - by Chuck - 2015-Aug-29, 05:54:07
RE: [OBG] Nature of Race Full - by Chuck - 2015-Aug-29, 16:20:57
RE: [OBG] Nature of Race Full - by Chuck - 2015-Sep-09, 20:37:55
Behavior - by Emil - 2015-Aug-28, 21:13:26
RE: [OBG] Nature of Race Full - by Krom - 2015-Aug-30, 18:19:48
RE: [OBG] Nature of Race Full - by Chuck - 2015-Aug-30, 20:04:25
RE: [OBG] Nature of Race Full - by Krom - 2015-Aug-31, 13:47:19
RE: [OBG] Nature of Race Full - by Chuck - 2015-Aug-31, 19:04:52
RE: [OBG] Nature of Race Full - by Krom - 2015-Sep-01, 00:42:22
RE: [OBG] Nature of Race Full - by Chuck - 2015-Sep-01, 18:28:46
RE: [OBG] Nature of Race Full - by Chuck - 2015-Aug-31, 20:53:48
RE: [OBG] Nature of Race Full - by Chuck - 2015-Aug-31, 22:18:55
RE: [OBG] Nature of Race Full - by Krom - 2015-Aug-31, 19:15:58
RE: [OBG] Nature of Race Full - by Chuck - 2015-Aug-31, 19:21:59
RE: [OBG] Nature of Race Full - by Chuck - 2015-Aug-31, 19:39:33
RE: [OBG] Nature of Race Full - by Chuck - 2015-Aug-31, 20:24:58
RE: [OBG] Nature of Race Full - by Krom - 2015-Aug-31, 23:30:23
RE: [OBG] Nature of Race Full - by Krom - 2015-Sep-01, 00:24:17
RE: [OBG] Nature of Race Full - by Krom - 2015-Sep-01, 16:37:55
RE: [OBG] Nature of Race Full - by Chuck - 2015-Sep-01, 19:15:17
RE: [OBG] Nature of Race Full - by Krom - 2015-Sep-07, 00:45:05
RE: [OBG] Nature of Race Full - by Krom - 2015-Sep-07, 00:54:23
RE: [OBG] Nature of Race Full - by Emil - 2015-Sep-07, 03:44:27
RE: [OBG] Nature of Race Full - by Krom - 2015-Sep-08, 04:53:44
RE: [OBG] Nature of Race Full - by Chuck - 2015-Sep-09, 19:20:13
RE: [OBG] Nature of Race Full - by Krom - 2015-Sep-07, 00:58:47
RE: [OBG] Nature of Race Full - by Chuck - 2015-Sep-08, 00:34:45
RE: [OBG] Nature of Race Full - by Krom - 2015-Sep-07, 01:02:11
RE: [OBG] Nature of Race Full - by Krom - 2015-Sep-07, 01:04:36
RE: [OBG] Nature of Race Full - by Krom - 2015-Sep-08, 04:13:42
RE: [OBG] Nature of Race Full - by Chuck - 2015-Sep-09, 04:29:01
RE: [OBG] Nature of Race Full - by Krom - 2015-Sep-08, 04:28:46
RE: [OBG] Nature of Race Full - by Chuck - 2015-Sep-09, 05:15:14
RE: [OBG] Nature of Race Full - by Krom - 2015-Sep-08, 13:28:18
RE: [OBG] Nature of Race Full - by Krom - 2015-Sep-08, 13:44:55
RE: [OBG] Nature of Race Full - by Krom - 2015-Sep-09, 04:40:50
RE: [OBG] Nature of Race Full - by Chuck - 2015-Sep-09, 05:46:38
RE: [OBG] Nature of Race Full - by Chuck - 2015-Sep-09, 18:15:32
RE: [OBG] Nature of Race Full - by Krom - 2015-Sep-09, 05:27:14
RE: [OBG] Nature of Race Full - by Chuck - 2015-Sep-09, 06:21:26
RE: [OBG] Nature of Race Full - by Krom - 2015-Sep-09, 20:52:04
RE: [OBG] Nature of Race Full - by Chuck - 2015-Sep-09, 22:37:50
RE: [OBG] Nature of Race Full - by Chuck - 2015-Sep-09, 23:36:59
RE: [OBG] Nature of Race Full - by Krom - 2015-Sep-10, 00:43:47
RE: [OBG] Nature of Race Full - by Chuck - 2015-Sep-10, 00:58:25
RE: [OBG] Nature of Race Full - by Chuck - 2015-Sep-10, 01:22:48
RE: [OBG] Nature of Race Full - by Chuck - 2015-Sep-10, 03:33:57
RE: [OBG] Nature of Race Full - by Krom - 2015-Sep-10, 01:42:59
RE: [OBG] Nature of Race Full - by Chuck - 2015-Sep-10, 03:07:49
RE: [OBG] Nature of Race Full - by Chuck - 2015-Sep-10, 03:55:57
RE: [OBG] Nature of Race Full - by Krom - 2015-Sep-10, 04:36:06
RE: [OBG] Nature of Race Full - by Chuck - 2015-Sep-10, 06:27:34
RE: [OBG] Nature of Race Full - by Krom - 2015-Sep-10, 09:21:20
RE: [OBG] Nature of Race Full - by Chuck - 2015-Sep-11, 05:03:18
RE: [OBG] Nature of Race Full - by Krom - 2015-Sep-10, 17:38:21
RE: [OBG] Nature of Race Full - by Chuck - 2015-Sep-11, 01:55:34
RE: [OBG] Nature of Race Full - by Krom - 2015-Sep-10, 18:33:31
RE: [OBG] Nature of Race Full - by Chuck - 2015-Sep-11, 05:27:39
RE: [OBG] Nature of Race Full - by Krom - 2015-Sep-11, 23:46:42
RE: [OBG] Nature of Race Full - by Krom - 2015-Sep-10, 18:48:03
RE: [OBG] Nature of Race Full - by Chuck - 2015-Sep-11, 06:48:48
RE: [OBG] Nature of Race Full - by Krom - 2015-Sep-11, 22:38:06
RE: [OBG] Nature of Race Full - by Krom - 2015-Sep-11, 22:39:16
RE: [OBG] Nature of Race Full - by Krom - 2015-Sep-11, 22:59:31
RE: [OBG] Nature of Race Full - by Krom - 2015-Sep-11, 23:07:35
RE: [OBG] Nature of Race Full - by Krom - 2015-Sep-11, 23:53:26
RE: [OBG] Nature of Race Full - by Krom - 2015-Sep-12, 00:04:04
RE: [OBG] Nature of Race Full - by Chuck - 2015-Sep-13, 06:40:18
RE: [OBG] Nature of Race Full - by General-Factor analyst - 2016-Jan-21, 02:57:26
RE: [OBG] Nature of Race Full - by Chuck - 2016-Jan-21, 03:21:15
RE: [OBG] Nature of Race Full - by Duxide - 2016-Jan-23, 19:14:09
RE: [OBG] Nature of Race Full - by General-Factor analyst - 2016-Jan-23, 21:07:04
RE: [OBG] Nature of Race Full - by Chuck - 2016-Jan-23, 21:30:14
RE: [OBG] Nature of Race Full - by General-Factor analyst - 2016-Feb-11, 01:35:21
RE: [OBG] Nature of Race Full - by General-Factor analyst - 2016-Feb-11, 02:33:20
RE: [OBG] Nature of Race Full - by Chuck - 2016-Feb-11, 06:45:54
RE: [OBG] Nature of Race Full - by General-Factor analyst - 2016-Feb-11, 07:37:46
RE: [OBG] Nature of Race Full - by Emil - 2016-Feb-11, 09:29:40
[OBG] Nature of Race part 1 & 2 - by Chuck - 2014-Dec-27, 02:48:10
[OBG] Nature of Race part 4 - by Chuck - 2014-Dec-30, 23:58:10
RE: Nature of Race part 4 - by Peter Frost - 2014-Dec-31, 18:11:25
RE: Nature of Race part 4 - by Chuck - 2015-Jan-01, 00:20:51
RE: Nature of Race part 4 - by Chuck - 2015-Jan-01, 15:37:35
RE: Nature of Race part 4 - by Peter Frost - 2015-Jan-01, 23:36:17
RE: Nature of Race part 2 - by Chuck - 2015-Jan-04, 07:01:40
RE: Nature of Race part 1 - by Emil - 2015-Jan-04, 07:27:12
RE: Nature of Race part 1 - by Meng Hu - 2015-Jan-05, 18:57:40
RE: Nature of Race part 1 - by Chuck - 2015-Jan-08, 00:15:45
RE: Nature of Race part 1 - by Meng Hu - 2015-Jan-09, 01:16:53
[OBG] Nature of Race, part 3 - by Chuck - 2015-Jan-09, 23:33:46
RE: Nature of Race, part 3 - by Peter Frost - 2015-Jan-11, 04:16:31
RE: Nature of Race part 4 - by Chuck - 2015-Jan-11, 05:19:49
RE: Nature of Race, part 3 - by Chuck - 2015-Jan-11, 05:51:03
RE: Nature of Race, part 3 - by Peter Frost - 2015-Jan-11, 18:15:29
RE: Nature of Race part 4 - by Peter Frost - 2015-Jan-11, 18:39:54
RE: Nature of Race part 4 - by Chuck - 2015-Jan-11, 21:13:22
RE: Nature of Race, part 3 - by Chuck - 2015-Jan-11, 23:47:15
RE: Nature of Race, part 3 - by Chuck - 2015-Jan-12, 00:17:13
RE: Nature of Race part 4 - by Emil - 2015-Jan-12, 03:56:59
RE: Nature of Race part 4 - by Peter Frost - 2015-Jan-12, 06:47:22
RE: Nature of Race part 4 - by Emil - 2015-Jan-12, 18:31:23
RE: Nature of Race part 4 - by Duxide - 2015-Jan-12, 18:44:54
RE: Nature of Race part 4 - by Chuck - 2015-Jan-12, 21:51:03
RE: Nature of Race part 4 - by Chuck - 2015-Jan-12, 22:08:59
[OBG] Nature of Race part 5 - by Chuck - 2015-Jan-14, 04:25:25
RE: Nature of Race part 4 - by Duxide - 2015-Jan-14, 10:35:21
RE: Nature of Race part 4 - by Chuck - 2015-Jan-16, 21:34:48
RE: Nature of Race part 4 - by Peter Frost - 2015-Jan-17, 21:50:13
RE: Nature of Race part 4 - by Chuck - 2015-Jan-18, 02:46:31
RE: Nature of Race, part 3 - by Meng Hu - 2015-Jan-18, 04:59:02
RE: Nature of Race part 2 - by Meng Hu - 2015-Jan-18, 06:00:51
RE: Nature of Race part 4 - by Peter Frost - 2015-Jan-19, 03:19:58
RE: Nature of Race part 4 - by Chuck - 2015-Jan-19, 21:02:17
RE: Nature of Race part 4 - by Peter Frost - 2015-Jan-20, 18:45:25
RE: Nature of Race part 2 - by Chuck - 2015-Jan-21, 02:21:31
RE: Nature of Race part 4 - by Chuck - 2015-Jan-21, 02:59:27
RE: Nature of Race part 4 - by Chuck - 2015-Jan-21, 03:00:44
RE: Nature of Race part 4 - by Duxide - 2015-Jan-21, 11:00:51
RE: Nature of Race, part 3 - by Chuck - 2015-Jan-22, 00:06:32
RE: Nature of Race, part 3 - by Meng Hu - 2015-Jan-22, 03:26:56
RE: Nature of Race part 4 - by Chuck - 2015-Jan-22, 06:12:47
Some comments - by Emil - 2015-Jan-23, 21:01:32
RE: Nature of Race part 4 - by Peter Frost - 2015-Jan-24, 02:03:48
RE: Nature of Race, part 3 - by Chuck - 2015-Jan-24, 06:57:50
Comments on version 3 - by Emil - 2015-Jan-24, 07:34:24
RE: Nature of Race part 4 - by Meng Hu - 2015-Jan-25, 05:19:51
RE: Nature of Race part 1 - by Chuck - 2015-Jan-25, 07:14:06
RE: Nature of Race part 2 - by Chuck - 2015-Jan-26, 02:29:36
RE: Nature of Race part 4 - by Chuck - 2015-Jan-26, 06:12:38
RE: Nature of Race, part 3 - by Meng Hu - 2015-Jan-28, 04:42:41
RE: Nature of Race, part 3 - by Chuck - 2015-Jan-30, 04:47:18
RE: Nature of Race part 1 - by Dalliard - 2015-Feb-04, 16:44:13
RE: [OBG] Nature of Race part 1 - by Chuck - 2015-Feb-12, 01:16:14
[OBG] Nature of Race part 6 - by Chuck - 2015-Mar-05, 22:39:52
RE: [OBG] Nature of Race part 6 - by Emil - 2015-Mar-06, 01:33:45
RE: [OBG] Nature of Race part 6 - by Chuck - 2015-Mar-06, 01:36:16
RE: [OBG] Nature of Race part 6 - by Emil - 2015-Mar-06, 04:23:24
RE: [OBG] Nature of Race part 6 - by Chuck - 2015-Mar-06, 22:05:46
RE: [OBG] Nature of Race part 6 - by Emil - 2015-Mar-06, 23:43:06
RE: [OBG] Nature of Race part 6 - by Chuck - 2015-Mar-06, 23:59:47
RE: [OBG] Nature of Race part 4 - by Meng Hu - 2015-Mar-07, 00:16:16
RE: [OBG] Nature of Race part 6 - by Emil - 2015-Mar-07, 03:00:17
RE: [OBG] Nature of Race part 4 - by Chuck - 2015-Mar-07, 22:28:41
RE: [OBG] Nature of Race part 4 - by Meng Hu - 2015-Mar-08, 03:25:20
RE: [OBG] Nature of Race part 4 - by Chuck - 2015-Mar-08, 05:51:23
RE: [OBG] Nature of Race part 5 - by Emil - 2015-Mar-09, 03:27:19
RE: [OBG] Nature of Race part 5 - by Chuck - 2015-Mar-09, 05:09:23
Nature of Race Full Version - by Chuck - 2015-Mar-13, 23:03:56
RE: Nature of Race Full Version - by B.B. - 2015-Mar-19, 14:00:41
RE: Nature of Race Full Version - by Chuck - 2015-Mar-19, 17:21:11
RE: Nature of Race Full Version - by B.B. - 2015-Mar-20, 13:13:56
RE: Nature of Race Full Version - by Emil - 2015-Mar-19, 19:19:17
RE: Nature of Race Full Version - by Chuck - 2015-Mar-19, 19:27:20
RE: Nature of Race Full Version - by Peter Frost - 2015-Mar-20, 05:18:27
RE: Nature of Race Full Version - by Meng Hu - 2015-Mar-20, 15:45:47
RE: Nature of Race Full Version - by Chuck - 2015-Mar-21, 17:51:14
RE: Nature of Race Full Version - by Chuck - 2015-Mar-24, 00:11:29
RE: Nature of Race Full Version - by Meng Hu - 2015-Mar-28, 21:00:38
RE: Nature of Race Full Version - by Chuck - 2015-Mar-29, 16:27:50
RE: Nature of Race Full Version - by Emil - 2015-Mar-20, 21:26:44
RE: Nature of Race Full Version - by Peter Frost - 2015-Mar-21, 20:50:39
RE: Nature of Race Full Version - by Chuck - 2015-Mar-21, 21:49:27
RE: Nature of Race Full Version - by Peter Frost - 2015-Mar-21, 22:32:28
RE: Nature of Race Full Version - by Chuck - 2015-Mar-23, 02:14:31
RE: Nature of Race Full Version - by Peter Frost - 2015-Mar-24, 22:31:05
RE: Nature of Race Full Version - by Chuck - 2015-Mar-25, 01:03:09
RE: Nature of Race Full Version - by Peter Frost - 2015-Mar-25, 03:05:50
RE: Nature of Race Full Version - by Chuck - 2015-Mar-25, 03:20:05
RE: Nature of Race Full Version - by Emil - 2015-Mar-25, 16:20:10
RE: Nature of Race Full Version - by Chuck - 2015-Mar-27, 22:49:39
RE: Nature of Race Full Version - by Chuck - 2015-Mar-27, 22:55:52
RE: Nature of Race Full Version - by Emil - 2015-Mar-29, 19:42:54
RE: Nature of Race Full Version - by Chuck - 2015-Mar-30, 03:54:53
RE: Nature of Race Full Version - by Chuck - 2015-Mar-30, 21:27:12
RE: Nature of Race Full Version - by Emil - 2015-Mar-30, 22:04:02
RE: Nature of Race Full Version - by Peter Frost - 2015-Mar-31, 05:18:56
RE: Nature of Race Full Version - by Chuck - 2015-Mar-31, 20:30:42
RE: Nature of Race Full Version - by Peter Frost - 2015-Apr-01, 00:11:29
RE: Nature of Race Full Version - by Chuck - 2015-Apr-01, 01:52:41
RE: Nature of Race Full Version - by Peter Frost - 2015-Apr-01, 18:10:07
RE: Nature of Race Full Version - by Chuck - 2015-Apr-01, 19:59:55
RE: Nature of Race Full Version - by Peter Frost - 2015-Apr-02, 19:14:39
RE: Nature of Race Full Version - by Chuck - 2015-Apr-02, 20:58:27
RE: [OBG] Nature of Race part 1 - by Peter Frost - 2015-Mar-13, 23:06:45
RE: [OBG] Nature of Race part 1 - by Chuck - 2015-Mar-13, 23:12:43
RE: [OBG] Nature of Race part 5 - by Meng Hu - 2015-Mar-16, 04:19:57
RE: [OBG] Nature of Race part 5 - by Chuck - 2015-Mar-17, 00:07:49
RE: [OBG] Nature of Race part 5 - by Chuck - 2015-Mar-17, 02:01:50
RE: [OBG] Nature of Race part 5 - by Meng Hu - 2015-Mar-20, 14:31:07
RE: [OBG] Nature of Race part 5 - by Meng Hu - 2015-Mar-20, 19:21:44
RE: [OBG] Nature of Race part 5 - by Emil - 2015-Mar-20, 20:49:14
RE: [OBG] Nature of Race part 5 - by Meng Hu - 2015-Mar-28, 20:28:56
RE: [OBG] Nature of Race part 5 - by Chuck - 2015-Mar-29, 15:38:20
RE: [OBG] Nature of Race, part 3 - by Meng Hu - 2015-Apr-03, 03:22:30
RE: [OBG] Nature of Race part 2 - by Meng Hu - 2015-Apr-03, 04:19:12
RE: [OBG] Nature of Race, part 3 - by Chuck - 2015-Apr-03, 06:28:02
RE: [OBG] Nature of Race part 2 - by Chuck - 2015-Apr-03, 18:29:11
RE: [OBG] Nature of Race part 2 - by Chuck - 2015-Apr-03, 18:33:02
RE: [OBG] Nature of Race, part 3 - by Meng Hu - 2015-Apr-04, 01:09:17
RE: [OBG] Nature of Race part 2 - by Chuck - 2015-Apr-04, 01:14:15
RE: [OBG] Nature of Race part 1 - by Meng Hu - 2015-Apr-04, 01:59:22
RE: [OBG] Nature of Race part 2 - by Meng Hu - 2015-Apr-04, 02:32:37
RE: [OBG] Nature of Race part 2 - by Chuck - 2015-Apr-04, 04:04:17
RE: [OBG] Nature of Race part 2 - by Chuck - 2015-Apr-04, 04:35:17
RE: [OBG] Nature of Race part 1 - by Chuck - 2015-Apr-04, 23:26:01
RE: [OBG] Nature of Race part 2 - by Meng Hu - 2015-Apr-06, 02:02:50
RE: [OBG] Nature of Race part 5 - by Meng Hu - 2015-Apr-06, 03:39:43
RE: [OBG] Nature of Race part 2 - by Chuck - 2015-Apr-06, 20:07:05
RE: [OBG] Nature of Race part 5 - by Chuck - 2015-Apr-06, 21:32:08
RE: [OBG] Nature of Race Full - by Meng Hu - 2015-Apr-10, 01:36:38
RE: [OBG] Nature of Race Full - by Chuck - 2015-Apr-10, 05:56:50
RE: [OBG] Nature of Race Full - by Chuck - 2015-Apr-10, 06:27:06
RE: [OBG] Nature of Race Full - by Meng Hu - 2015-Apr-11, 00:28:43
RE: [OBG] Nature of Race Full - by Chuck - 2015-Apr-11, 01:11:50
RE: [OBG] Nature of Race Full - by Meng Hu - 2015-Apr-13, 02:55:44
RE: [OBG] Nature of Race Full - by Chuck - 2015-Apr-13, 07:08:01
RE: [OBG] Nature of Race Full - by Chuck - 2015-Apr-13, 21:41:27
RE: [OBG] Nature of Race Full - by Chuck - 2015-Apr-14, 01:50:31
 
Forum Jump:

Users browsing this thread: 2 Guest(s)